By Florida
#28698
Apologies for the source, but you really can't knock their rugby journalism
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... eason.html

TL:DR
PRL pushing for relegation to be scrapped for 3 more years (to July 2024), at which point the 8 year professional game agreement between PRL and RFU will expire. They'd be looking to expand the league to 14 clubs after next season.
By GC89
#28704
Unclear what this means going forwards. There have already been some dead rubbers this season but it remains to be seen whether that is a taste of things to come or whether that is more a result of a congested season and no anglo-welsh to rotate. Personally, think the league lacks something without relegation, but that may be being spoken through a lens of us finally looking up the table rather than down.
User avatar
By Stevie J
#28719
I may have said this previously, so forgive me if I have, but I once listened to the journalist Steve Mascord discuss the concept of promotion and relegation as 'Victorian'. Which it is both in when the concept was introduced to sports leagues here as well as the work ethic notion that anyone through talent and application of sheer hard work could reach the pinnacle of their profession. The only issue is its completely out of whack with professional sports, especially nowadays. Football is the only sport that can sustain the requisite number of professional clubs for such a system; it is the exception not the norm. In Rugby only one country, France, has shown the joined up thinking required to create two fully professional leagues.

Money has taken hold of professional sports so much. Our expectations on and off the field have increased dramatically and the barriers to entry now are so high without ringfencing I'm not sure who could survive whilst funding an Academy, a Stadium with suitable matchday revenue drivers, all whilst trying to spend to a £5m+ salary cap, not to mention marquee players, coaches, Development Officers and the like.

We love the romanticism, sure, but Exeter aside (and lets not claim they are some great David versus Goliath story, please, they had a lot going for them) promotion is usually followed swiftly by relegation. No Championship club as currently constituted could survive. And I've not seen any proof (and interestingly on Twitter, some people such as Mick Hogan, CEO of Newcastle and Mark Evans ex CEO of Quins say this too) that there is commercial benefit in Relegation fights. There are no crowd bumps, no increased ratings. We at Irish saw this first hand with several fights against relegation. Fans didn't come back, they left in droves. And sponsors don't want agreements with clubs beyond a year if there is a chance of relegation. No relegation at least means commercial surety (or what passes in COVID world).

The Championship absolutely needs more funding, but RFU pennies are only going to help these clubs avoid shuttering. The RFU have enough money tied up in Professional Rugby that our grassroots are suffering. There just isn't a huge stack of cash to subsidise more failing clubs.

If we want Relegation, we need a proper second tier and that means we need a plan for one, to allow for a fully professional second tier similar to the Pro D2. I am no expert but from what I've seen I'm not sure there is even a whiff of commercial interest in the Championship and the Premiership itself it just trying to survive. They don't see the benefit of the second tier other than loaning out Academy kids. And you might say, well, why should they invest in clubs who might take their place.

If Prem Rugby, like the LNR, could come up with a masterplan for professional rugby I'd be shocked. So without a viable path to promotion and staying in the Prem, I'd be in favour of some form of limited promotion / licencing. But maintaining the status quo because maybe, like a Hollywood film, Ampthill or London Scottish might make it to the promised land is going to fail more times than not.

In 2002, Gretna FC was taken over by the eccentric Brooks Mileson and he funded this tiny club with no fans through to the SPL. Even to a cup final. Great memories for a time, but then the money ran out by 2008, Mileson passed away and the club was put into administration and then liquidated. London Welsh for a rugby example (and Scottish, and Richmond...) if you prefer but we keep holding up the rare successes and not the ruins of clubs that paid the price for their dreams of reaching the promised land. Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park four years prior to promotion.

Its just not enough to dream big and work hard anymore. Professional sport is money, its infrastructure, its self interest. I'm not sure why we think next time will be better because the odds are it won't be.
MattM, Mañoexile, M_W and 5 others liked this
By M_W
#28720
Well put Stevie. Much more eloquently than I could have expressed it.

I'm fundamentally okay with relegation where there is a commercially viable and competitive second tier. We are a million miles away from that, so I'm fine with this course of action if true.

Although appreciate that may be a minority view amongst many rugby fans.
By GHA
#28721
Stevie J wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:24 pm
Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park four years prior to promotion.
Which is what Cornish Pirates have been trying to do for a while, I think? Presumably Ealing are looking at taking the bags of cash route
By SimonG
#28722
GHA wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:01 pm
Stevie J wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:24 pm
Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park four years prior to promotion.
Which is what Cornish Pirates have been trying to do for a while, I think? Presumably Ealing are looking at taking the bags of cash route
I think at the moment Ealing are looking to go the automatic promotion route.
By GHA
#28725
SimonG wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:04 pm
GHA wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:01 pm
Stevie J wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:24 pm
Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park four years prior to promotion.
Which is what Cornish Pirates have been trying to do for a while, I think? Presumably Ealing are looking at taking the bags of cash route
I think at the moment Ealing are looking to go the automatic promotion route.
Well yeah, isn't everybody?
By Iron Lung
#28729
I would argue that relegation/promotion doesn't work at the top levels of football either. Clubs push themselves to the edge of administration trying to reach the premier league or return to it immediately.

Ultimately we're asking Championship clubs to live within their means AND shoot for the stars. As Steve says, that takes a lot of money or long term planning AND luck plus some money. The sugar daddies we see in France seem to be fewer on the ground here in England.
Narbia liked this
User avatar
By Narbia
#28731
If true, I'm pleased : not least from a selfish point of view.

Were I an England Rugby supporter, I'd be even more pleased, as Irish could produce several EQ academy grads capable of reaching the highest level - without jeopardising LIRFC's sustainability.

I don't get this fixation that relegation and promotion produces greater entertainment than the no movement.

Leinster (Pro14/16 champions -no relegation) just beat Exeter (GP champions - relegation enabled) in a terrific game of rugby. Pro14 strugglers Benneton were just a bit unlucky to lose to Top 14 (relegation allowed) $$$ club Montpellier. Zebre a bit unlucky to lose to Bath....etc.
Hard to infer the merits or demerits of a relegation threat from that.


Anyway maybe CVC have decided that they like the format of the Pro14/16 and the GP is moving in that direction.

And as for serious investments required to get/maintain top flight, well just look at what Brenford FC have just spent. I don't think there's an English rugby club that could come anywhere close to that.
SixNineOne liked this
By SimonG
#28732
GHA wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:11 pm
SimonG wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:04 pm
GHA wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:01 pm


Which is what Cornish Pirates have been trying to do for a while, I think? Presumably Ealing are looking at taking the bags of cash route
I think at the moment Ealing are looking to go the automatic promotion route.
Well yeah, isn't everybody?

Well the majority of the Championship aren't because their grounds don't comply to Premiership criteria. Plus someone said "Presumably Ealing are looking at taking the bags of cash route". Can you remember who that was?
User avatar
By SixNineOne
#28740
Narbia wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:07 pm
If true, I'm pleased : not least from a selfish point of view.

Were I an England Rugby supporter, I'd be even more pleased, as Irish could produce several EQ academy grads capable of reaching the highest level - without jeopardising LIRFC's sustainability.

I don't get this fixation that relegation and promotion produces greater entertainment than the no movement.

Leinster (Pro14/16 champions -no relegation) just beat Exeter (GP champions - relegation enabled) in a terrific game of rugby. Pro14 strugglers Benneton were just a bit unlucky to lose to Top 14 (relegation allowed) $$$ club Montpellier. Zebre a bit unlucky to lose to Bath....etc.
Hard to infer the merits or demerits of a relegation threat from that.


Anyway maybe CVC have decided that they like the format of the Pro14/16 and the GP is moving in that direction.

And as for serious investments required to get/maintain top flight, well just look at what Brenford FC have just spent. I don't think there's an English rugby club that could come anywhere close to that.
As soon as we start talking about ringfencing, the same old dead rubber arguments get trotted out. I’d add our games in the second half of last season to Narbia’s examples. By then we knew that we were safe from relegation but had no realistic chance of a top 6 finish, so all our matches were dead rubbers. Did that make them any less exciting, or did you shout at the TV any less? Absolutely not! Genuine supporters care about their team too much, and we had the added bonus of seeing some of our younger players get some great first team experience. As for casual supporters and neutrals, they’re mostly interested in seeing a good competitive game of rugby and probably don’t care too much about the risk of relegation (unless there’s a clear David and Goliath storyline). So let’s bury the dead rubber argument once and for all!
By GHA
#28741
SimonG wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:56 pm
GHA wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:11 pm
SimonG wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:04 pm

I think at the moment Ealing are looking to go the automatic promotion route.

Well yeah, isn't everybody?

Well the majority of the Championship aren't because their grounds don't comply to Premiership criteria. Plus someone said "Presumably Ealing are looking at taking the bags of cash route". Can you remember who that was?
I remember, yes - it was me! I suggested Ealing were taking the bags of cash route to success, i.e. spending more on the playing squad and staff, as opposed to the Pirates who appear to me to be following Exeter's earlier approach in terms of investing in infrastructure and a new stadium etc. In fact I think I even quoted your comment about Exeter's success and investment strategies and the Pirates' similarities, do you remember?

In reply to that you suggested Ealing were actually looking at the automatic promotion approach. I'm pretty sure every team in the Championship (who is aiming for promotion and has a compliant ground) will be looking to go the automatic promotion approach because there isn't really any other approach to getting promoted, is there?

Otherwise I could've responded to your 'Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park' comment by saying 'actually they did it through the automatic promotion approach.' And that would've been silly.
By bigbitty
#28746
Stevie J wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:24 pm
I may have said this previously, so forgive me if I have, but I once listened to the journalist Steve Mascord discuss the concept of promotion and relegation as 'Victorian'. Which it is both in when the concept was introduced to sports leagues here as well as the work ethic notion that anyone through talent and application of sheer hard work could reach the pinnacle of their profession. The only issue is its completely out of whack with professional sports, especially nowadays. Football is the only sport that can sustain the requisite number of professional clubs for such a system; it is the exception not the norm. In Rugby only one country, France, has shown the joined up thinking required to create two fully professional leagues.

Money has taken hold of professional sports so much. Our expectations on and off the field have increased dramatically and the barriers to entry now are so high without ringfencing I'm not sure who could survive whilst funding an Academy, a Stadium with suitable matchday revenue drivers, all whilst trying to spend to a £5m+ salary cap, not to mention marquee players, coaches, Development Officers and the like.

We love the romanticism, sure, but Exeter aside (and lets not claim they are some great David versus Goliath story, please, they had a lot going for them) promotion is usually followed swiftly by relegation. No Championship club as currently constituted could survive. And I've not seen any proof (and interestingly on Twitter, some people such as Mick Hogan, CEO of Newcastle and Mark Evans ex CEO of Quins say this too) that there is commercial benefit in Relegation fights. There are no crowd bumps, no increased ratings. We at Irish saw this first hand with several fights against relegation. Fans didn't come back, they left in droves. And sponsors don't want agreements with clubs beyond a year if there is a chance of relegation. No relegation at least means commercial surety (or what passes in COVID world).

The Championship absolutely needs more funding, but RFU pennies are only going to help these clubs avoid shuttering. The RFU have enough money tied up in Professional Rugby that our grassroots are suffering. There just isn't a huge stack of cash to subsidise more failing clubs.

If we want Relegation, we need a proper second tier and that means we need a plan for one, to allow for a fully professional second tier similar to the Pro D2. I am no expert but from what I've seen I'm not sure there is even a whiff of commercial interest in the Championship and the Premiership itself it just trying to survive. They don't see the benefit of the second tier other than loaning out Academy kids. And you might say, well, why should they invest in clubs who might take their place.

If Prem Rugby, like the LNR, could come up with a masterplan for professional rugby I'd be shocked. So without a viable path to promotion and staying in the Prem, I'd be in favour of some form of limited promotion / licencing. But maintaining the status quo because maybe, like a Hollywood film, Ampthill or London Scottish might make it to the promised land is going to fail more times than not.

In 2002, Gretna FC was taken over by the eccentric Brooks Mileson and he funded this tiny club with no fans through to the SPL. Even to a cup final. Great memories for a time, but then the money ran out by 2008, Mileson passed away and the club was put into administration and then liquidated. London Welsh for a rugby example (and Scottish, and Richmond...) if you prefer but we keep holding up the rare successes and not the ruins of clubs that paid the price for their dreams of reaching the promised land. Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park four years prior to promotion.

Its just not enough to dream big and work hard anymore. Professional sport is money, its infrastructure, its self interest. I'm not sure why we think next time will be better because the odds are it won't be.
This is an excellent post, Stevie J.

There was another Scottish football team, Inverness Caledonian Thistle (known as Callie), who also shone brightly for a few seasons. At their peak they took on and handsomely defeated the mighty Celtic.

The next day there was a fantastic headline:

Super Callie go ballistic, Celtic are atrocious.
MattM liked this
User avatar
By Stevie J
#28753
The Daily Record's finest pun that. But you've also incidentally touched on something else related to my post.

Caledonian and Thistle FC merged in 1994 to form Caledonian Thistle FC (eventually renamed Inverness Caledonian Thistle) when applying to join the professional Scottish leagues from the Highland League.

Two professional teams merging assets, infrastructure and eventually fanbases to give themselves the best shot at being a professional winning team. A team that has spent several long periods in the top division and even played in Europe.
MattM liked this
By SimonG
#28757
GHA wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:24 pm
SimonG wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:56 pm
GHA wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:11 pm



Well yeah, isn't everybody?

Well the majority of the Championship aren't because their grounds don't comply to Premiership criteria. Plus someone said "Presumably Ealing are looking at taking the bags of cash route". Can you remember who that was?
I remember, yes - it was me! I suggested Ealing were taking the bags of cash route to success, i.e. spending more on the playing squad and staff, as opposed to the Pirates who appear to me to be following Exeter's earlier approach in terms of investing in infrastructure and a new stadium etc. In fact I think I even quoted your comment about Exeter's success and investment strategies and the Pirates' similarities, do you remember?

In reply to that you suggested Ealing were actually looking at the automatic promotion approach. I'm pretty sure every team in the Championship (who is aiming for promotion and has a compliant ground) will be looking to go the automatic promotion approach because there isn't really any other approach to getting promoted, is there?

Otherwise I could've responded to your 'Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park' comment by saying 'actually they did it through the automatic promotion approach.' And that would've been silly.
Ever heard the phrase "when you are in a hole stop digging?"

I only made one post on this thread before your bizarre reply.
By GHA
#28763
I'm in a hole, am I?

I get the feeling you're the only one who thinks my reply was 'bizarre,' @SimonG... Possibly because you misunderstood it.
By SimonG
#28770
GHA wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:56 am
I'm in a hole, am I?

I get the feeling you're the only one who thinks my reply was 'bizarre,' @SimonG... Possibly because you misunderstood it.
Well I understand you wrote what you wrote and I understand that you are attributing quotes to me that I didn't make for some bizarre reason.

I can't speak for others as you feel able to but please keep digging your hole it's making me laugh a lot!
User avatar
By Stevie J
#28774
Guys - there is The Craic if you want this kind of conversation.

We don't have an Editor / Admin , so please can we keep it on topic?
GHA liked this
By GHA
#28777
Well I understand you wrote what you wrote and I understand that you are attributing quotes to me that I didn't make for some bizarre reason.
Which quotes are they then @SimonG? Don't tell me you've misunderstood something again...
By GHA
#28778
Stevie J wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:34 pm
Guys - there is The Craic if you want this kind of conversation.

We don't have an Editor / Admin , so please can we keep it on topic?
Agreed @Stevie J, just trying to clear up any lasting confusion now, I don't want people getting the wrong end of the stick :-k
By SimonG
#28780
GHA wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:52 pm
:lol
You just can't help yourself can you GHA?

I will abide by Stevie J's request and ignore your obvious trolling.
By SimonG
#28783
GHA wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:57 pm
SimonG wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:31 pm
GHA wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:52 pm
:lol
I will abide by Stevie J's request
But ignore all of mine. :sad:
OK at the risk of boring everyone and prolonging a discussion with you ..

In your post of 11.24pm yesterday you said and I quote "Otherwise I could've responded to your 'Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park' comment by saying 'actually they did it through the automatic promotion approach.' And that would've been silly".

I did not say "'Exeter only succeeded in a rugby mad area with a built in fanbase and invested in their infrastructure including moving to and building Sandy Park". I would not say it because I do not believe it to be true.

That is why I said in my post of 1.20pm today " I understand that you are attributing quotes to me that I didn't make for some bizarre reason".

I will ignore your "Don't tell me you've misunderstood something again..." which I regard as trolling.

Now do you finally understand that I did not say what you quoted?
By GHA
#28786
Ah, my mistake, I mixed up comments made by @Stevie J and @SimonG. Apologies for that to both.

So to draw a line, conclude, and summarise whilst staying vaguely on topic, Stevie said Exeter had the infrastructure / new stadium approach. I replied and said I think Cornish Pirates are taking a similar approach, whereas Ealing are taking the 'bags of money' route.

Simon's reply said 'I think Ealing are looking to go the automatic promotion route.'

Maybe that comment was trolling, but it not it seems pretty obvious because anyone and everyone who wants to get promoted from the Championship into the Premiership has to take the 'automatic promotion route.' I believe this to be true, and hopefully everyone fully understands why.

Cheers

Queen

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