[Narbia]

Nothing more than a straw poll, for my own curiosity.

As @M_W mentioned over thread, maybe some people would have like an ordered wind down to a long stint in the GreeneKing Championship. What thinks you (PLURAL)?

Me, I wouldn't be much for it. .... I'll update this as I think it through....

PROS:

• We still have a team to support.

• We've experienced it twice in recent history

• Win nearly every game

CONS:

• I can't see how it is financially viable as we'd still need somewhere to play (and rent it), and a training ground.

• No TV income, almost un-televised.

• No TMOs

• A lot more dubious hits go un-reffed

• No European teams to play.

• Probably zero chance of promotion (as GP will be permanently ring-fenced hereafter) and the P-shares would be gone after 2 years anyway.

• You'd still be under the auspices of the RFU

• No academy, few or zero current internationals.

• The 'income' from the RFU has been severely trimmed in recent years.

[M_W]

I mean it's all incredibly hypothetical now, as achieving it will be far more difficult without a leg up from somewhere.

However it's something that may have been an option several years ago as it became clear that Mick wouldn't be able to service the losses long term (clearly requires some post covid hindsight)

I wouldn't necessarily have seen us winning every week, as you'd really have to cut your cloth and run a good championship squad, rather than a prem squad surviving in the Championship for a year and swallowing the losses.

You wouldn't be profitable, but you'd potentially have sorted a groundshare with someone like Wimbledon and be losing £500k-£1m a year, rather than £3m+. Which would be manageable over a much longer period. What you may have been able to do though is keep Hazlewood, keep the RFU academy (Yorkshire did for a long time in the Championship) and hold tight for an eventual restructure of the league where you see if you could be included in some kind of ringfenced prem 2.

It's all hindsight though and that horse has well and truly bolted now.

[Narbia]

Ten years ago when big Bob Casey was CEO, he'd be quite open and straight and say

The club will continue as long as the board will cover the losses

.

That was the time to have this discussion and war-game all the options. After that, the 'board' became fewer and was essentially just MC. Communication thereafter became virtually non-existent as you said. I don't know, but did LISC get any chance to convey opinions to the owner(s)?

[Narbia]

You wouldn't be profitable, but you'd potentially have sorted a groundshare with someone like Wimbledon and be losing £500k-£1m a year, rather than £3m+. Which would be manageable over a much longer period. What you may have been able to do though is keep Hazlewood,..

I'm not sure I agree with those figures, a bit low I think. Point is you'll still need someone to cover the losses. I've no idea what Brentford was costing, but was once told that the Madejski was costing £15K per match. Or was it £50K? How true, no idea?

[M_W]

Sure, there will always be an element of guesswork. What kills prem clubs is the salary spend. Compared to other industries, a crazy % of turnover is spent on salaries.

Even with the salary cap at 5m, if you spend to the cap, you will actually be spending a lot more once things like academy credits, injury dispensation and marquee players are taken into account. Teams in the league will be perfectly legally spending 7m or so on players. Even heard SMT quote that figure on a podcast recently.

You'd slash a huge amount of your cost base straight away droppng down to 1 to 1.5m on player spend for the championship.

But ultimately its pro rugby. You always need someone to cover losses. You just need the losses to not be too crazy.

[A38]

As you can imagine, we here in Worcester were having similar thoughts before it became clear at around the turn of the year that the new owners felt unable to meet the RFU's conditions for entry into the Championship.

Wasps' new owners indicated that they would meet those conditions but in the event did not.

The result is that, for the moment at least, both Worcester and Wasps exist in name only - with Sixways used only by the ladies and a local soccer team.

We have found that there is one huge gap between the Premiership and starting again at the bottom of the league pyramid. There does not appear to be a mid way point of entry but with the two clubs more or less going out of existence that is perhaps not unfair.

In any case, even if suddenly a deus ex machina was to appear and allow either club to meet the RFU's conditions for entry into the Championship, the door has been closed for the 23/24 season. From press reports, if there is no good news for you at London Irish next week, that door will also prevent a reconstructed LI squad to compete in the Championship this Autumn.

This is where I get many raised eyebrows from fellow Worcester supporters who are not sanguine about the RFU / PRL doing anything particularly radical about the state of English professional rugby even though there are many voices pointing out that the existing models do not work. My view is that the professional game cannot exist out of the wallets of a few rich owners for much longer and "something must be done".

There has been scepticism at the announcement that a review is to be undertaken by Messrs Ralph Rimmer and Chris Pilling in an effort to " reshape the game’s future strategic financial and sporting direction” but I do think that this might be a way forward.

There has already been discussion in the press about there being two Premiership Leagues, 1 and 2, both of 10 teams.

This may well be a way back for Wasps, former Euro Cup winners etc etc, and with them Worcester. But to do this, existing RFU conditions might have to be "dealt with" and the potential self interest of the "senior" Premiership clubs faced up to.

Now, you see why I'm looked at with some amusement. Surely everything can't be thrown up in the air and we begin again at the beginning, can it?

[M_W]

Interesting thanks A38. For the avoidance of doubt I was talking about what we should have done 4 or 5 years ago in my role as Captain Hindsight.

There's a mountain to climb now to even rejoin in the Championship for the 24-25 season.

[Narbia]

Some good talking points there @A38 .

I don't know but didn't London Scottish and Richmond restart in the Championship? I'll check.
On your point of having a sole rich benefactor, well that clearly isn't working for us, and I doubt we'll be the last.

Strangely enough, maybe just by coincidence or otherwise, but AFC Wimbledon, the soccer club : they seem to be well supported and aren't they owned by the supporter base? Just as FC Barcelona is. Even the galactico of FCB can cut its cloth appropriately - they let go the world's best footballer! So other workable options do exist.

[Stevie J]

Communication thereafter became virtually non-existent as you said. I don't know, but did LISC get any chance to convey opinions to the owner(s)?

So this is a very salient point Narbia. As some know, I was formerly on the LISC committee, basically for all of the bad years! The clubs communication certainly went back and forth between open and closed depending on the Chief Exec. With Bob and with Facer, they certainly would listen to comments and suggestions. But I’ll tell you one thing more.

Back after the second relegation, the LISC discussed and researched potential plans to transfer into a Supporters Trust, to be a legal vehicle to potentially be ready for, well, right now actually. I had seen what had happened in Scottish Football and that such bodies can save clubs from extinction. Just see what Motherwell, Hearts etc have accomplished. We had reached out to the appropriate body, and even introduced at a (very poorly) attended AGM some initial research.

I do remember presenting that to the club, at the Madejski, with Facer and Michael O’Hagan. It was very much put to us that there was no need for such a transformation. And heavily inferred that such positioning (to be ready to step in with fan funding to bring the club or a portion of it under fan ownership) was a negative one.

Between the lack of AGM attendance and the clubs pushback I have to be honest and my passion for it waned, I knew I was standing down one year later anyway so let it slide. It also seemed from my research that most rugby fans just don’t have the passion for their club that football fans do - say what you want about football but if a club is going to the wall, you can bet they would mobilise quickly - and that led it to being shelved.

[GHA]

My guess would be (and I may be way off) that it's cheaper to keep Motherwell going, especially on a pounds per fan basis, than it is to keep a Premiership rugby club going?

[Stevie J]

GHA - I certainly didn’t think that we could keep a Prem Rugby team going with a Trust, no. This was about the difference between having something and nothing. But it was also about, could such a model exist in rugby terms? It has in football up and down the pyramid across the world. German clubs famously are 51% fan owned.

Motherwell certainly is a smaller team in revenue terms, Hearts are probably more in line with Prem Rugby in revenue terms, and they certainly have more fans and matches to pump that revenue in. But on a smaller scale could 2,000 backers alongside some moderate local benefactors keep a Championship level team going? It’s an interesting thought experiment.

[SimonG]

I don't know but didn't London Scottish and Richmond restart in the Championship? I'll check.

No they both re-started at level nine.

[Narbia]

I don't know but didn't London Scottish and Richmond restart in the Championship? I'll check.

No they both re-started at level nine.

Ah, that's a long way back to the Championship then!

[SimonG]

I don't know but didn't London Scottish and Richmond restart in the Championship? I'll check.

No they both re-started at level nine.

Ah, that's a long way back to the Championship then!

Indeed but they both made it and Richmond at least despite relegation back to National League One last season are a financially sound and flourishing rugby club in every sense of the word.

[Flumpty]

Some good talking points there @A38 .


Strangely enough, maybe just by coincidence or otherwise, but AFC Wimbledon, the soccer club : they seem to be well supported and aren't they owned by the supporter base? Just as FC Barcelona is. Even the galactico of FCB can cut its cloth appropriately - they let go the world's best footballer! So other workable options do exist.

I keep seeing articles that FC Barcelona are over £1bn in debt, so maybe not the best example !

[Narbia]

I keep seeing articles that FC Barcelona are over £1bn in debt, so maybe not the best example !

Must be half that without paying Leo's salary for 2 or 3 years?

Anyway £1 Bn in debt for a club like that is small beer. What is debt to asset value or debt to turnover ratio? Football and rugby are incomparable at the top level.

How much debt are the hugely successful Man City in? It doesn't matter because they're backed by a Gulf sovereign state