[SSR]

Yet another thing England consistently get wrong is having Slade kick to touch.

There, fixed that for you. Daley is a far better footballer than Slade if that is what you want.
He is also far faster ( still ).
I just don't get what Slade offers at all.

[RinTin]

Slade has, in seasons past, been a phenomenal touch finder from penalties. It is also handy that he was left footed. Despite this he was poor from hand on Saturday.

Bringing Daly in causes the problem we had previously - it is moving Lawrence from his best position of 13 to 12. We need a 12.

[DavenportSharky]

Just listened to The Ruck podcast from The Times. Extraordinary optimism suddenly abounds. We have won one match by a point at home against a French team playing under par. They thought TC was MoM which I agree with.
If we lose the next match it will be back to doom and gloom no doubt. This yo yoing of emotions used to be classic Sharktank podcast reaction. The podcast seems to have finished abruptly on my provider. Does anyone know what has happened to it?

[RinTin]

France were also missing a number of first choicers including the likes of Olivon, Ntamack, Danty and Fickou. England had all fit and available bar Furbank.

We beat an understrength French team at home, a French team who played poorly and butchered at least 2 clear try scoring opportunities. Wins a win, can argue we made them play poorly, but lets not get carried away.

[Olyy]

It was a much improved performance, so I kind of get the general optimism in as much as it felt like the first step in the right direction in a while

But....yeah, France left three tries out there in the first 20 minutes through unforced handling errors

[Lord Elpus]

Yet another thing England consistently get wrong is having Slade kick to touch.

There, fixed that for you. Daley is a far better footballer than Slade if that is what you want.
He is also far faster ( still ).
I just don't get what Slade offers at all.

If you must quote someone at least do the full quote which is "having Slade kick to touch from the left side".

Slade does some good kicks - from the right side of the field.

[SSR]

If you must quote someone at least do the full quote which is "having Slade kick to touch from the left side".

I attempted a bit of humour in order to make my point about Slade and his POD.
Oh well, won't try that again .
Along this vein, what actually do we need from a 12 in modern internationals ?
Is it speed, tackling ability, good hands ( ie footballing skills ) ? Anything else ?
I have often thought that a good openside flanker could/should do all that.
We have a glut of good young flankers, surely one of them could be converted ?

[RinTin]

As someone who played 12 from the age of 13 until 28, this idea of the centres being interchangable with each other, combined with flankers being able to fill in, is a real trigger. It's the same as saying that anyone can run up and down a wing, anyone can push in a scrum or jump in a lineout. It's a lack of appreciation for the skills needed which is quite ironic given the criticism of Slade.

It's speed, tackling ability and hands as you say, but it's about being able to read the game and anticipate attacks and defences. Seeing space and exploiting it but, most importantly, a 12 should be creating space for others through distribution and lines of running. That's what we want from the England 12 anyway given Lawrence is 13.

[SSR]

OK, more to it than just being a good footballer. However, the defence patterns are part of the
structure now, everyone has their role, presumably drilled to perfection?
For the most part flankers are standing out in the centres at most lineouts already.
I undertood that the defensive line is usually policed by 13 anyway?
Isn't the reason a certain League international or two have been used at inside centre as it is
easier to convert to that and their skills are mostly transferrable there ?
Not casting any denigration as I only played schoolboy rugby in every position from
hooker to full back except Lock and Wing, but have watched Rugby for well over 60 years.
Still learning though.

[Yareet]

OK, more to it than just being a good footballer. However, the defence patterns are part of the
structure now, everyone has their role, presumably drilled to perfection?
For the most part flankers are standing out in the centres at most lineouts already.
I undertood that the defensive line is usually policed by 13 anyway?
Isn't the reason a certain League international or two have been used at inside centre as it is
easier to convert to that and their skills are mostly transferrable there ?
Not casting any denigration as I only played schoolboy rugby in every position from
hooker to full back except Lock and Wing, but have watched Rugby for well over 60 years.
Still learning though.

Then you should know that everything beyond 8 is just deciding where the next scrum is

[SSR]

I should know a lot of things, but the older I get, the less I know.

[exileneal]

Just listened to The Ruck podcast from The Times. Extraordinary optimism suddenly abounds. We have won one match by a point at home against a French team playing under par. They thought TC was MoM which I agree with.
If we lose the next match it will be back to doom and gloom no doubt. This yo yoing of emotions used to be classic Sharktank podcast reaction. The podcast seems to have finished abruptly on my provider. Does anyone know what has happened to it?

Sharktank is back today… Looks like they just had a month where they couldn’t get around to recording? I’m sure they actually explain it on the podcast but haven’t listened yet - that’s for listening to on my lunchtime run tomorrow!

[poyntonshark]

The idea that a professional rugby player can't make the adjustments needed between 12 and 13 is frankly ridiculous. It's a very English discussion. Come to Australia or New Zealand and ask if someone is a 12 or a 13, you will be told he is a back. Scrum half is the only truly specialist position in the backs in SH, most backs are expected to be able to fill in at 10 in extremis. Perhaps this explains why Australia were able to play a guy, in his first professional game of Rugby Union, in the centres and he extracted the urine out of the England backs.

Not sure if you have noticed, but Rugby can often be quite fluid, when reacting in multi-phase plays forming your attacking and defensive lines it is not always convenient to line up according to the number on your back, you had better be aware of the positioning and lines required for wherever you end up.

12 and 13 are different, although some seem to want to make that difference akin to the difference between croquet and wrestling, it isn't that different. Players will likely have a preference for one over the other, but it is entirely possible that they will line up in that order only for first phase play.

From the age of 11 until 18 I played in the centre, but we did't play inside and outside, we played left and right, perhaps goes some way to explaining my attitude.

[RinTin]

12 and 13 are different

Glad you agree.

The original post in this part of the thread talked about a flanker being able to go into the centres without issue, that was what was a main part of what was contested. Thoughts on that?

[SSR]

As the village idiot that suggested that an emerging flanker could be coached into a 12,
perhaps I am being misrepresented. I suggested that a flanker could be converted, not
necessarily without issue. The pool is deep at flanker at the moment, there are apparently
no 12s worth looking at in the Premiership it would seem.
Something has to change?

[Yareet]

As the village idiot that suggested that an emerging flanker could be coached into a 12,
perhaps I am being misrepresented. I suggested that a flanker could be converted, not
necessarily without issue. The pool is deep at flanker at the moment, there are apparently
no 12s worth looking at in the Premiership it would seem.
Something has to change?

Around 2016, we were bemoaning the lack of 7s in England which meant that Robshaw and Haskell played as two 6.5s in Australia.

Jump forward a year and we had the emergence of the Curry brothers and Underhill followed by Earl, etc..

Post-2023 (?) there was concern about the lack of props. England built a prop school and we now have the likes of Asher coming through.

tl:dr in the time it takes to convert a flanker, the landscape can change pretty dramatically.

[SSR]

How long will it take to convert Slade into a 12 ?

[Yareet]

How long will it take to convert Slade into a 12 ?

Gavin Hastings has him starting the first Lions test there

[SSR]

Good job he isn't picking the team then.

[RinTin]

How long will it take to convert Slade into a 12 ?

More time than we've got looking at his last 5 England games at 12. Then again, his form at 13 for England was poor before then too. He's just off the boil completely likely not helped by Chiefs struggles and being their fly half. He's just not up to international rugby at the moment it seems.

Dare I say it but Farrell was a very good 12 and, if he was still an option now, would benefit from the hard running Lawrence at 13. Some combinations work, others don't.

As an example RDP doesn't work at 12 for us, question is why?

[SSR]

The best 12 in the league was Easter..Ooster.. the springbok at Quinns. An archetype for an
England centre.
We need to find a skilful bosh merchant with delicate hands and teach the rest to
run off him. Simples!

[SSR]

PS
Apologies if I am coming across as sharp and argumentative. Suffering from a bad toothache and haven't had a Dentist since Covid. I like and appreciate the exchange of views here and
would hate to upset anyone.

[RinTin]

Not coming across in that way at all to me, I enjoy a bit of back and forth!

Based on your last comment I'm thinking purely about Coonie Oosthuizen as a crash ball merchant from 12....

[Yareet]

Not coming across in that way at all to me, I enjoy a bit of back and forth!

Based on your last comment I'm thinking purely about Coonie Oosthuizen as a crash ball merchant from 12....

From the information we have, I can only assume he meant the Easter brother who didn't make it

[SSR]

Sadly I think I read that Coenie has finally retired. His line breaking days are over.

[SSR]

Was there an Easter brother that did make it ? If he did I bet he was late.

[Lord Elpus]

It was the orthodox one - he was even later.

[Surbiton_Shark]

Rest of the 6N for England will be a bit of a non-event really.

Scotland we should overcome fairly easily
Wales - a gimme
Italy - we'll just overpower them

Hopefully we'll get some consistency in selection and build some confidence up

[RinTin]

Wales in Cardiff on the final weekend with nothing to lose and a new coach is far from a gimme... it terrifies me. Especially if we go there with a chance of winning the title.

One thing England do need to do is build up the points difference to stand any chance of winning the title. And of course hope France do a number on Ireland.

[Lord Elpus]

Rest of the World aka "Scotland" may not be easy if Russell is fit.

[Olyy]

Scotland we should overcome fairly easily

Should we??
Recent results don't really suggest so

[Yareet]

Was there an Easter brother that did make it ? If he did I bet he was late.

Well Nick played for Quins and England but Mark went further and played for Sale

[poyntonshark]

I'm fairly confident he means the man mountain Andre Esterhuizen, bullied the premiership for a number of years with Marcus pulling his strings.

Once of this parish Richie Vernon came to us in 2011 as a No8/Flanker, he went back to Glasgow in 2013, struggled to break into the side and converted to centre. I want to say he added to his Scotland caps at centre, but a quick look doesn't confirm. It does look as though he was in their 2015 World cup squad which would have been in the centre.

He is obviously an exception rather than the rule particularly at higher levels.

[SSR]

I did indeed mean Andre Esterhuizen , just forgot how to spell it.
Could we bring him back to the UK ?
I also forgot ( if I ever knew ) that Mark Easter played for us.
I remember Vernon well ( and fondly ). I have always enjoyed the forwards that can outrun
the backs. Ripley and Croft just two that bring back a warm glow.

[Lord Elpus]

iirc Esterhuizen stated that he didn't want to play for England even if qualified.

I think an England target may be B. Janse van Rensburg of Bristol.

[Yareet]

iirc Esterhuizen stated that he didn't want to play for England even if qualified.

I think an England target may be B. Janse van Rensburg of Bristol.

He is certainly against project players stating before a Scotland game last year that he'd "rather have 18 caps for the Springboks than 70 caps for a different country that I'm not actually born in".

But given he played in that game, Andre wouldn't be eligible for any other country other than by birth/ancestry ... and even then not until 2029, I think.

[Flumpty]

iirc Esterhuizen stated that he didn't want to play for England even if qualified.

I think an England target may be B. Janse van Rensburg of Bristol.

Until a few minutes ago, I didn't realise that he was R JvR brother ! (and may not be and I could be spouting tosh !!)

[exileneal]

Updated England 28 Man Squad to prepare for the Scotland game for the rest of this week features LCD, Ben Curry, Ford and Roebuck.

The other half of the Twindaloo is injured but staying with the squad to rehab with the intention of joining the full squad next week.

I hope that Asher has been released so that he can get a game in the PRC this weekend ahead of playing in the A team game next week?

Congratulations to our guys who have been picked!

[Olyy]

I don't think he is - think there's confusion over it because of the same surname but it's a common one in SA

Seem to remember Rohan's brother being in the British police

[RinTin]

No Rodd, Asher or Quirke in the A’s squad.

Well done Joe Carpenter.

[Olyy]

Imagine any full squad drop downs will be announced in the run up to the game, think that's what they did last time?

Like the squad, but the backs is a bit of a weird make up - all 10s, 12s and 15s

Hopefully Joe C gets the start, Hendy can play on the wing and I don't rate Hodge

Shame no Bamber but feel like he's not been playing as much this season so can understand him dropping down the pecking order

Gotta imagine Quirke's still injured, as he was due to be in the 23 for the opening round of the 6N - surely he'd have made either the main or A training squads if fit?

[dinogyro]

PS
Apologies if I am coming across as sharp and argumentative. Suffering from a bad toothache and haven't had a Dentist since Covid. I like and appreciate the exchange of views here and
would hate to upset anyone.

Sorry to be OT, but if can't access/afford private treatment, you may find a dentistry training hospital that will treat you for free. It's not as grim as it sounds!

[exileneal]

Imagine any full squad drop downs will be announced in the run up to the game, think that's what they did last time?

Like the squad, but the backs is a bit of a weird make up - all 10s, 12s and 15s

Hopefully Joe C gets the start, Hendy can play on the wing and I don't rate Hodge

Shame no Bamber but feel like he's not been playing as much this season so can understand him dropping down the pecking order

Gotta imagine Quirke's still injured, as he was due to be in the 23 for the opening round of the 6N - surely he'd have made either the main or A training squads if fit?

Yeah I would assume Asher is in the bracket where he is not called up for this short training week so that he can get a game with us this weekend. But will be in the main squad next week and if he isn’t in the match day 23 for Scotland will move to the A team for their game.

I’m surprised Dingwall isn’t in the A squad having captained last time. Unless this is an indication that he’s likely to be in the main squad next week?

[Surbiton_Shark]

iirc Esterhuizen stated that he didn't want to play for England even if qualified.

I think an England target may be B. Janse van Rensburg of Bristol.

Until a few minutes ago, I didn't realise that he was R JvR brother !

I appreciate it's not April 1st - plus I'm away on business and had a few beers....

Is that true??? - Rohan who played for us is Janse's brother????

[Flumpty]

iirc Esterhuizen stated that he didn't want to play for England even if qualified.

I think an England target may be B. Janse van Rensburg of Bristol.

Until a few minutes ago, I didn't realise that he was R JvR brother !

I appreciate it's not April 1st - plus I'm away on business and had a few beers....

Is that true??? - Rohan who played for us is Janse's brother????

Maybe, probably, possibly, perhaps, I'd got the wrong end of the stick when I'be been smurfing T'internet earlier on.

[Olyy]

iirc Esterhuizen stated that he didn't want to play for England even if qualified.

I think an England target may be B. Janse van Rensburg of Bristol.

Until a few minutes ago, I didn't realise that he was R JvR brother !

I appreciate it's not April 1st - plus I'm away on business and had a few beers....

Is that true??? - Rohan who played for us is Janse's brother????

No, Rohan's brother is a policeman in Scotland and Benhard's brother is 20 and still in SA and works on their parents farm

[Surbiton_Shark]

Until a few minutes ago, I didn't realise that he was R JvR brother !

I appreciate it's not April 1st - plus I'm away on business and had a few beers....

Is that true??? - Rohan who played for us is Janse's brother????

No, Rohan's brother is a policeman in Scotland and Benhard's brother is 20 and still in SA and works on their parents farm

Like Charlie Hodgson in an English shirt proudly displaying 10 on the back.....it was brief and nice whilst it lasted :-)

[AndaleManito]

I'm fairly confident he means the man mountain Andre Esterhuizen, bullied the premiership for a number of years with Marcus pulling his strings.

Once of this parish Richie Vernon came to us in 2011 as a No8/Flanker, he went back to Glasgow in 2013, struggled to break into the side and converted to centre. I want to say he added to his Scotland caps at centre, but a quick look doesn't confirm. It does look as though he was in their 2015 World cup squad which would have been in the centre.

He is obviously an exception rather than the rule particularly at higher levels.

From what I can see on All Rugby, looks like he won 4 caps (3 starts, one bench) at centre for Scotland in 2015-16 season, so your hunch was right!

[AndaleManito]

Until a few minutes ago, I didn't realise that he was R JvR brother !

I appreciate it's not April 1st - plus I'm away on business and had a few beers....

Is that true??? - Rohan who played for us is Janse's brother????

No, Rohan's brother is a policeman in Scotland and Benhard's brother is 20 and still in SA and works on their parents farm

Yes looks like the person who edited BJVR's Wikipedia page just made an assumption based on their surnames.

[poyntonshark]

I'm fairly confident he means the man mountain Andre Esterhuizen, bullied the premiership for a number of years with Marcus pulling his strings.

Once of this parish Richie Vernon came to us in 2011 as a No8/Flanker, he went back to Glasgow in 2013, struggled to break into the side and converted to centre. I want to say he added to his Scotland caps at centre, but a quick look doesn't confirm. It does look as though he was in their 2015 World cup squad which would have been in the centre.

He is obviously an exception rather than the rule particularly at higher levels.

From what I can see on All Rugby, looks like he won 4 caps (3 starts, one bench) at centre for Scotland in 2015-16 season, so your hunch was right!

Thanks for the confirmation, but I never doubted myself........honest.