[dinogyro]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... -breakdown

[Yareet]

Ooh now that is interesting.

I do wonder though how deeply you can look at this and how many assumptions can be made. For me, this article seems to suggest just looking at the bald numbers of league positions. If we remove BPs, what does the league look like?

But that doesn't tell the whole story. The fact that BPs exist change how teams play.

Imagine a team who has scored three tries and is losing by 2 points with 2 minutes to go. They get a penalty bang in front and 30m out.

With no bonus points, the option would be to take as long as possible over the kick and bank the penalty aiming to hold out for the win (0 league points become 4).

With BPs, they may be more tempted to kick for the corner and aim for the try (1 point becomes 5). The difference in league standing is the same (an extra 4 points) but the probability of achieving that win is less.

For me there is also the question of league competitive. A team who has had close losses across 3 games is arguably more suited to the league than a team who gets humped in 2 games and then manages one win because the oppo had a red card.

[SSR]

Have we won the league then ? Something to cheer us up.

[Yareet]

Have we won the league then ? Something to cheer us up.

Yup



It was a while ago though

[SSR]

I have to say that I hate the playoff format as it stands. Home advantage is too big an
advantage to decide a full program of matches. Either do it properly, If you are first you win
the league or hold the semi's at neutral grounds ( with grass surfaces ).
I am also not sure on the bonus point rationale. Losing bonus point gives something to
fight for, but 4 try bonus point seems too capricious. Does it really reflect the high scoring
matches worth in terms of crowd satisfaction ?

[dinogyro]

I think all pro grounds should be grass, to level the playing field.

I think the try bonus point is the contentious one. Losing bonus point I have no problem with.

[ledzepsfr]

Article beat me to it, I was waiting until after the final game.
I have long been an advocate of getting rid of the TBP. As it stands today:
With TBP
BATH - LEICESTER - BRISTOL - SALE - SARACENS - GLOUCESTER - HARLEQUINS - NORTHAMPTON - EXETER - NEWCASTLE

Without TBP
BATH - LEICESTER - SALE - SARACENS - BRISTOL - GLOUCESTER - HARLEQUINS - NORTHAMPTON - EXETER - NEWCASTLE

More interestingly, remove the losing bonus point also and the table today looks like:
BATH - LEICESTER - SALE - BRISTOL - SARACENS - GLOUCESTER - HARLEQUINS - NORTHAMPTON - EXETER - NEWCASTLE

So all in all, albeit giving an extra bite to the end of a close game or the business end of the season, the bonus point adds nothing. I have not looked at other seasons, so not sure if this post reflects all seasons or just this one.

[RinTin]

TBP system is France is much better. It revolves around the amount you beat the opposition by, not by scoring4 tries. I believe they need to out score the opposition by 3 tries to get one.

LBP margin is 5 points, not 7.

Clear goal of TBP was obviously to increase try scoring and excitement in the game which is reasonable, I feel it needs to be adapted though.

Play off system works imo, and home advantage is a part of it. What’s the reward for running out as league winners, only to play 4th place at a neutral ground? The twickenham spectacle for the final is a good day out as well and rarely disappoints.

[LJK]

Of course this year I will be quite happy with the system as looks like we may well end up 4th, but really a league of just 10, having 40% of the teams qualify for the play offs is just daft. I think there was one year where 3rd played 2nd for the chance to join the league winners in the final? Can anyone else recall that, or am I imagining it? Until we get back to 12 teams that seems a better balance

[exileneal]

Of course this year I will be quite happy with the system as looks like we may well end up 4th, but really a league of just 10, having 40% of the teams qualify for the play offs is just daft. I think there was one year where 3rd played 2nd for the chance to join the league winners in the final? Can anyone else recall that, or am I imagining it? Until we get back to 12 teams that seems a better balance

I think that was the normal playoff format for a few years around 2002-2005 kind of time?

[ledzepsfr]

TBP system is France is much better. It revolves around the amount you beat the opposition by, not by scoring4 tries. I believe they need to out score the opposition by 3 tries to get one.

LBP margin is 5 points, not 7.

Clear goal of TBP was obviously to increase try scoring and excitement in the game which is reasonable, I feel it needs to be adapted though.

Play off system works imo, and home advantage is a part of it. What’s the reward for running out as league winners, only to play 4th place at a neutral ground? The twickenham spectacle for the final is a good day out as well and rarely disappoints.

I've said before that the French system is more fair to the points table. Not sure if I've said it here in text or in the members bar at a game though

[Yareet]

Of course this year I will be quite happy with the system as looks like we may well end up 4th, but really a league of just 10, having 40% of the teams qualify for the play offs is just daft. I think there was one year where 3rd played 2nd for the chance to join the league winners in the final? Can anyone else recall that, or am I imagining it? Until we get back to 12 teams that seems a better balance

I think that was the normal playoff format for a few years around 2002-2005 kind of time?

Yup. That’s how wasps won leagues as the team who finished top had no game for 2-3 weeks while wasps stayed match sharp

[SSR]

What’s the reward for running out as league winners, only to play 4th place at a neutral ground?

Now that is another debate.
The obvious answer is make them the league winners officially, end of story.
If there is a debate about why they are the league winners eg because they have the spending
power to rotate very strong sides for all matches , then make the playoffs into a cup format for
a different trophy starting from scratch. Same number of matches for the sides to play,
only without any unnescessary baggage.
I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international
callups are recognised to weaken teams with more callups and smaller squads.

[RinTin]

What’s the reward for running out as league winners, only to play 4th place at a neutral ground?

I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway

Money money money - each club in the playoffs gets another weekend of revenue from gates and tv rights. RFU gets to sell out Twickenham 1 week later. Also keeps excitement high as this season Bath would have won the league by now just takes the edge off it all.

With the financial issues at play it all makes sense imo to get these games in. It's also a great spectacle for English club rugby having that final game.

If we're dropping anything I'd say scrap the PRC. Instead do U20's league with exemptions for more senior players if needed.

[ledzepsfr]

What’s the reward for running out as league winners, only to play 4th place at a neutral ground?

Now that is another debate.
The obvious answer is make them the league winners officially, end of story.
If there is a debate about why they are the league winners eg because they have the spending
power to rotate very strong sides for all matches , then make the playoffs into a cup format for
a different trophy starting from scratch. Same number of matches for the sides to play,
only without any unnescessary baggage.
I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international
callups are recognised to weaken teams with more callups and smaller squads.

I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international.............Only one reason. MONEY

[RinTin]

Surely we can all admit it adds to the excitement around the end of the season? Bath would have cruised it this year and these last few games would have nothing like the excitement and importance they currently have.

[Yareet]

What’s the reward for running out as league winners, only to play 4th place at a neutral ground?

Now that is another debate.
The obvious answer is make them the league winners officially, end of story.
If there is a debate about why they are the league winners eg because they have the spending
power to rotate very strong sides for all matches , then make the playoffs into a cup format for
a different trophy starting from scratch. Same number of matches for the sides to play,
only without any unnescessary baggage.
I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international
callups are recognised to weaken teams with more callups and smaller squads.

I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international.............Only one reason. MONEY

My take from that is that you assume that money is not a valid reason to have the playoffs. At a time when club's are struggling for cash, the prospect of another home fixture (albeit for only 2 clubs) can't be ignored.

Not to mention another sell out at Twickenham pumping more money into the RFU.

Plus, as others have said there is the added excitement until the end of the league matches. Compare with the Premier League who had the Champions and relegated teams sorted with 4 rounds still to go.

[ledzepsfr]

Now that is another debate.
The obvious answer is make them the league winners officially, end of story.
If there is a debate about why they are the league winners eg because they have the spending
power to rotate very strong sides for all matches , then make the playoffs into a cup format for
a different trophy starting from scratch. Same number of matches for the sides to play,
only without any unnescessary baggage.
I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international
callups are recognised to weaken teams with more callups and smaller squads.

I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international.............Only one reason. MONEY

My take from that is that you assume that money is not a valid reason to have the playoffs. At a time when club's are struggling for cash, the prospect of another home fixture (albeit for only 2 clubs) can't be ignored.

Not to mention another sell out at Twickenham pumping more money into the RFU.

Plus, as others have said there is the added excitement until the end of the league matches. Compare with the Premier League who had the Champions and relegated teams sorted with 4 rounds still to go.

@Yareet Not at all. I merely said that the reason was money. I did not sat that the playoffs were invalid nor that I was against them.

[Yareet]

I am still not sure why there are playoffs anyway, IF all sides are rested while the international.............Only one reason. MONEY

My take from that is that you assume that money is not a valid reason to have the playoffs. At a time when club's are struggling for cash, the prospect of another home fixture (albeit for only 2 clubs) can't be ignored.

Not to mention another sell out at Twickenham pumping more money into the RFU.

Plus, as others have said there is the added excitement until the end of the league matches. Compare with the Premier League who had the Champions and relegated teams sorted with 4 rounds still to go.

@Yareet Not at all. I merely said that the reason was money. I did not sat that the playoffs were invalid nor that I was against them.

Apologies for my assumption therefore