By Lord Elpus
#13666
Not only the new lockdown - imho most Cheetahs fans should have been locked away years ago - but m'learned fiends have been brought in.

Manu Tuilagi one of six players stood down by Leicester for not signing a new contract before yesterday's deadline.
The others are Telusa Veainu, Kyle Eastmond, Greg Bateman, Noel Reid and Jordan Taufua. Can we have some of those please - pretty please?
By Olyy
#13685
Be interesting to see where they all end up - Daily Mail claims that they could breeze a court case vs Tigers so could end up at another English club on much reduced wages and then sue Tigers for the difference

That said: Apparently there's a handshake agreement between the PRL sides not to try and screw others over because of COVID
By H's D
#13686
No thank you, even on reduced wages. The difference in their stances towards the financial crisis facing rugby clubs as a result of Covid, compared with the unified rational approach of our existing squad is far too stark. It would lead to huge issues within the squad. :yikes: what would their direct competitors for a starting place feel ...but we know that don't we....an excellent pipe dream though.... :sleep:
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By poyntonshark
#13693
Isn't it also possible that Sale Sharks management approached the players in a much more sensible manner and negotiated pay cuts rather than imposed them? To simply ignore such a pool of potentially available talent would be a mistake for me. Each player should be considered on their own merits. It's very doubtful that most clubs have the fiscal capacity for the surprise availability of big names, but you surely must consider the possibilities to acquire still one of the worlds most destructive centres.
By Olyy
#13697
Bateman would be the one I'd be most interested in - especially if Oosthuizen is going to be on the tighthead going forwards



That said I wouldn't really want to sign any of them if everyone had agreed not to - You'd imagine a few of the richer clubs ears' would have pricked up when they heard about Faf et al being asked to take paycuts, but they all took them and signed on the dotted line.
Karma and all that
By Taplow 1861
#13700
Manu I wish you every success for the future, however I’d prefer it not to be at Sale.

Also I think we’re being used as a convenient and now higher profile club to improve other offers from France or elsewhere.
By Olyy
#13702
Yeah, I don't really believe that

Used to be Sarries, Wasps, Bath, Bristol and now we're the club every out of contract players gets linked to
By H's D
#13704
So you have agreed as a united squad to accept a reduction in wages along with all staff, coaches etc because the finances of the club dictate they can't possibly afford to pay you according to the terms of your negotiated salary. Everyone is together in that decision and it is made very early in relation to other clubs. To a large extent you set a precedent as a squad of players in showing unity and demonstrate a great deal of empathy with the owner's difficult position. You know as a squad you can already beat anyone and lie second in the table....you have confidence in your squad.
The club repays that loyalty by signing a world class England centre (with money that has miraculously appeared out of the ether) who will almost certainly be on a significantly larger wage than you, especially after the first 12 months (if he is even around for more than a season).......You realize that if he is fit, he will play. Your appearance bonus/starting bonuses will be markedly reduced, as will your future international prospects, and you have kiboshed your self financially with a long term contract.
How would you feel if your surname was James/ Van Rensburg? Even if it wasn't, how would you feel to know your VOLUNTARY 25% wage reduction was being used to fund him?
Similar thoughts for any of the other players people would like to sign.
Moreover ask yourself why those players DEMANDED to be paid in full at Tigers despite the unprecedented circumstances. What does that say about them?
How to ruin the togetherness of a squad with one huge stab in the back? :flamed:
A classic example of bad man management.
By Van Cannonball
#13708
I’m with H’s D on this one, unless we had a clearly identified gap in the squad already that was a recruitment need and could be filled by one of these players, and even then I’d be put off by their stance.
By Lord Elpus
#13709
It would be a good contest though to see who was injured more - Van Rensburg or Tuilagi. I think most will go to France or Japan.

If EJ can't pick from abroad England are looking a bit thin on world class now.
By DavenportSharky
#13711
Would not want any of them. Several reasons. Manu either injured or with England. Manu has chosen cash over country and club. Eastmond disappointing wherever he has been. Bateman has been one of the leaders of this uprising and we don’t want a dressing room upset. Etc etc. Interesting that Genge for all his “trade unionism” gave in and signed. It’s not as though Leicester have been decent recently despite what they look like on paper. This all smacks of greed at a time when the country is facing redundancy, recession and a probable second wave of virus. Good luck and cheerio.
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By StalyShark
#13728
I really can’t see how this Tuilagi rumour could be valid. If he was on c. £500k and it was a simple 25% reduction that still still £375k; a hefty wedge. How can we offer him more and look those in the eye like Faf who were reportedly on c.£400k now c.£300k?

Centres we have now:
RJVR
S James
L James
S Hill

Options but not proper centres/academy lads:
AJ
RdP
Curtis
Doherty

Surely adequate already!?

If he doesn’t sack it off and go to France/Japan for reported Barrett money of c.£800k I would be very surprised.
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By Shark in Exile
#13740
Rather not have any of them as it’s likely to upset the squad as mentioned above by H’s D and in Tuilagi,s case prone to injury.

Has it not been reported that that the clubs have agreed not to ‘poach’ each other’s players in this scenario, so Manu and co could well be off overseas......?
By Elgar
#13747
Quite apart from whether it’s the right thing to do, I sense this is going to happen. Even if a short term, pay per play deal that could expire before the Lions tour (and if picked he’d tour as a free agent)

We’ve a reputation for very sharp practice in the transfer market as it is, I don’t think it can get any worse in that regard.

We must have cap room after Ashton, Wilson and Webber’s departure.

We were allegedly in the running for Nandolo, Lozwoski and May but missed out.

I doubt Tuilagi’s got many other options if he wants to tour with the Lions next summer.
By FarnhamShark
#13755
I really hope it doesn't - gives a horrible message to the current squad. Odd way to welcome Sam Hill to the club, too! Thanks for signing - pity you're not going to get many games! Tuilagi's a top-quality player, but the collateral damage would just be too great. Following Elgar's point, though - would it put more bums on seats? If so, anything's possible.
By StalyShark
#13758
Left field thinking but does he need a club to play for England and the Lions? He has walked into the team so many times after hardly playing before. £25k a game x 12 or so is still nice. Given his injury record playing just that amount of games a year could prolong his career. Just a thought.
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By poyntonshark
#13759
Danny Cipriani was going to upset our squad, Marland Yarde's attitude was going to upset our squad. It would seem that professional players are not on the same hair triggers as many fans. I don't believe we will sign Tuilagi, we don't have the need (mind you, we didn't need Marland) but I would wager that Dimes took an interest. I don't get the poaching nonsense, Leicester have announced that the players have departed. I don't know that the reason for that departure was purely the greed of the players concerned, the main point of my earlier post was that neither does anyone else who posts on here. Leicester Tigers are certainly not aiming any incriminations in the players' directions. I does seem a little odd that players exercising their legal right to protect their contracts are labelled as greedy, yet, closer to home a player can sign for 2 clubs, lie about it and take money from both clubs and the most flack he cops is that he didn't 'make himself look too good'
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By Van Cannonball
#13765
I’ve never taken issue with a signing on the basis of perceived attitude (as far as I can remember) I trust Dimes to make the judgement on that.

We were desperate for a player of DC’s quality at the time, don’t think our need is the same here.

My issue would not be with Manu and his reluctance to take a cut, so much as the fact of him then joining on presumably a better deal than offered than Leicester when our current players have taken cuts.

If he was joining on a lower amount with the prospect of suing Leicester to get paid the difference then it’s not a great association for the club.

Great player but too injury prone and away on international duty to be worth it.
User avatar
By IrishShark
#13766
FarnhamShark wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:38 am
I really hope it doesn't - gives a horrible message to the current squad. Odd way to welcome Sam Hill to the club, too! Thanks for signing - pity you're not going to get many games!
We signed denny solomona after signing josh charnley, which had even worse legal repercussions, so I wouldn't be surprised if we nabbed tuilagi.
By Van Cannonball
#13788
IrishShark wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:40 pm
FarnhamShark wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:38 am
I really hope it doesn't - gives a horrible message to the current squad. Odd way to welcome Sam Hill to the club, too! Thanks for signing - pity you're not going to get many games!
We signed denny solomona after signing josh charnley, which had even worse legal repercussions, so I wouldn't be surprised if we nabbed tuilagi.
Fair point...
By Van Cannonball
#13802
I reckon he’ll stay at Leicester. Can’t see him playing for another Prem club and he wants to play for England.

Know he’s been around forever but didn’t realise 29 now. That and reported 500k salary plus international absences is a big no thanks despite being a top player.
By ageinghoody
#14128
Not sure quite how I feel about that.

On the one hand, it does have a feel of poaching. On the other, any tacit or formal agreement between Premiership clubs not to hire players leaving in these circumstances would be a lock-out, and that I would definitely object to.

I'll be distinctly uncomfortable if he comes here on lower pay and then sues Tigers for the difference!
By Olyy
#14129
Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about it as well.

Manu is one of my favourite players and is one of the biggest stars in the game - usually I'd be over the moon if we were in the running to sign him but it does feel a bit underhanded.

Plus, thinking practically, is centre a position we need to spend big on? We've already signed Hill this season. Though I suppose Rohan and Manu are both injured more often than not.

What would it mean for Luke James' development? Go to 15 full time?
By Van Cannonball
#14130
Can see that it’s a big move for publicity, and he is a class player, but I don’t think it’s the best use of cap especially considering it’s reducing and we’ve signed Sam Hill. Doesn’t seem like good planning.

If we were going to go big on a signing I think full back would’ve been the most appropriate position.
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By poyntonshark
#14136
The poaching stuff is nonsense, Tigers have released him.

IF we have or are about to sign him, then it's all about the deal for me, don't think we have enough need of a centre to be paying pre-covid market value for him, but if at a reasonable price then might be good business. I too would be disappointed if we get him cheap and he sues for the rest
By Van Cannonball
#14143
If it were at a reasonable price, why would he accept that at Sale but not at Leicester, unless he intends to sue for the difference?

So either that’s the position or we’re paying full-whack, in which case it’s a slap in the face for the squad who stood together and all took a cut.

Either way it’s a problem as far as I can see.
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By DavenportSharky
#14145
You tell all the squad you need to take a pay cut and then you say we have spare cash and we are spending it on someone who is being paid more than all of you. That seems like dressing room suicide.
You tell all the back room staff we are cutting your salary or making you redundant then they realise where that saved cash is going. Club suicide.
Unless we are paying MT £1 for this year and he will sue LT for the shortfall??
The press are suggesting we will give a contract beyond this season so the cash would rocket up at that point.
That all seems a bit ungentlemanly to me but one gets the feeling that SD thinks all’s fair in love,war and rugby.
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By poyntonshark
#14147
I don't see a problem with MT going back to 'Full Whack' at a later date, so long as everyone else goes back too. I agree it would be odd to take less form Sale when he wouldn't from Tigers. I suppose possibilities are he is fed up with Tigers underperforming (they could have been relegated this season had Sarries not been caught) and this is an excuse to get out. Or he didn't like the way Tigers presented their cuts
By Van Cannonball
#14156
The more I think about it, I just can’t believe we’d be offering him the full salary, just wouldn’t make sense either financially or for the squad stability.

So either he’s gonna try and make the difference from Leicester or as you say maybe he was just looking for a way out of Leicester but to remain in England. I thought the long history of his family with Leicester would win out but then he’d have signed the contract with them.

It would certainly be helpful for the remainder of the season with the short turnaround on games.
By Monty9
#14159
Got to remember we have lost Ashton, Evans and Webber in the last 6 months (added Hill and Wiese) so salary reduction conversations with the full squad will have discussed that even with this we still need to add some more quality to the squad if we want to push on for the title, all part of the discussions and plan.

Players won’t have agreed cuts thinking we won’t or can’t add any other players in. I don’t believe squad harmony in this case will be an issue, we will still be running a significantly smaller squad than others.

Players want the best players in their squad so they can win things, Manu is absolute class on his day and takes defenders away from others. I love our existing options in the centres but we will have to rotate for this final run in, if we are rotating with players of the same quality we should be very excited.
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By Thekeg
#14167
Monty9 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:34 am
Got to remember we have lost Ashton, Evans and Webber in the last 6 months (added Hill and Wiese) so salary reduction conversations with the full squad will have discussed that even with this we still need to add some more quality to the squad if we want to push on for the title, all part of the discussions and plan.

Players won’t have agreed cuts thinking we won’t or can’t add any other players in. I don’t believe squad harmony in this case will be an issue, we will still be running a significantly smaller squad than others.

Players want the best players in their squad so they can win things, Manu is absolute class on his day and takes defenders away from others. I love our existing options in the centres but we will have to rotate for this final run in, if we are rotating with players of the same quality we should be very excited.
Yes, the argument that players agreeing to a pay cut means we shouldn’t sign anyone is bizarre, as long as the new player fits into the new wage structure and isn’t being overpaid compared to them I just think it’s a non issue. The players will want the best squad we can achieve within the new cap. We have to trust that the club aren’t throwing a disproportionate amount of money at him and I’d say it’s fair to do that given our transfer activity in last 10 years or so.

As a side note, is there any suggestion the players got anything in return for the pay cut? For example we’re contracts extended for an extra year at the lower rate to give them more security in exchange?
By Olyy
#14168
Thekeg wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:15 am
Monty9 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:34 am
Got to remember we have lost Ashton, Evans and Webber in the last 6 months (added Hill and Wiese) so salary reduction conversations with the full squad will have discussed that even with this we still need to add some more quality to the squad if we want to push on for the title, all part of the discussions and plan.

Players won’t have agreed cuts thinking we won’t or can’t add any other players in. I don’t believe squad harmony in this case will be an issue, we will still be running a significantly smaller squad than others.

Players want the best players in their squad so they can win things, Manu is absolute class on his day and takes defenders away from others. I love our existing options in the centres but we will have to rotate for this final run in, if we are rotating with players of the same quality we should be very excited.
Yes, the argument that players agreeing to a pay cut means we shouldn’t sign anyone is bizarre
That's not the argument though - the argument is signing someone who refuses to take a paycut and would walkout on his club over it.
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By poyntonshark
#14169
We already signed someone who wanted a big increase mid contract but didn't get it and actually walked out on his club seemingly without causing problems. Tuilagi hasn't walked out, he and the club have not agreed new terms
By Olyy
#14172
poyntonshark wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:28 pm
We already signed someone who wanted a big increase mid contract but didn't get it and actually walked out on his club seemingly without causing problems.
Who's that?
The only player we've signed after everyone agreed a 25% paycut is Wiese.
Unless you're on about Solomona? Which is not a comparable situation at all.
By Van Cannonball
#14173
The point on leavers is fair and I’d been thinking about it too this morning. I suppose a 25% reduction across the squad adds up to a lot more than 1 big salary.

If the discussion with the squad was we need to do this so that we can compete, fit within the new cap and sign 1 or 2 players to win things then I suppose it might not be a problem.

The squad balance is still a big issue for me though in terms of where to apply that extra cash, especially as we’ve signed Hill and lost Ashton. If Manu comes then we’re overstocked at centre and lacking in full back options. If Luke will play there more that’ll help, but a world class full back would’ve been much more influential on our current squad I believe. Of course it’s quite likely none were available...

He’ll probably only be at Sale for a short time before a big money move to France or Japan too, and again that’s a downer for me. What I’ve liked most about the majority of our Saffers is their age profile and long term contracts.

I won’t be unhappy if he joins, I just don’t think it’s the best strategy.
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