By Olyy
#24907
StalyShark wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:41 pm
O/T But does anyone know why Morozov isn’t in the Russia squad?
COVID complications?
Two week quarantine coming back into the UK plus whatever rules Russia have going into the country
Could've decided to sit this international period out
By LJK
#24910
Pretty sure I saw him with orange 'subs' vest on warming up with the team ahead of the game last night. Taken there as emergency cover presumably
By chris1850
#24911
LJK wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:54 pm
Pretty sure I saw him with orange 'subs' vest on warming up with the team ahead of the game last night. Taken there as emergency cover presumably
Yes. He was definitely there last night
By ageinghoody
#24930
Just a thought.

I vaguely recall having a similar conversation after losing the first 6 Nations match last year!
By ale shark
#24937
ageinghoody wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:05 pm
Just a thought.

I vaguely recall having a similar conversation after losing the first 6 Nations match last year!
We’d lost in Paris! And we showed a tiny bit of ambition.

Jones just stubbornly relies on the same players irrespective of form or fitness. It’s so frustrating.
By Surbiton_Shark
#24939
Reminded me of the game earlier this season when we played Newcastle away

At all times - just kick the ball away and realise way to late maybe you need to keep it in hand (around the 65 mins mark)

If I see Farrell starting at 10 it doesn't really fill my much enthusiasm of what lays ahead.

Can't imagine the team are overly enthused either with the kicking tactics - just literally run like a dog around the park chasing a bone.

Normally I would have been at Twickenham to watch - quite glad I wasn't yesterday
User avatar
By Lord Elpus
#24945
It was all so predictable - weakened squad, too many rusty Sorries, no crowd at HQ, Pro-14 ref. One of my daughters rang me before the game and I said they'd lose for the aforesaid reasons.

If I can see it coming why couldn't EJ?
By WillC
#24961
Streatham Shark wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:40 pm
Eddie has to go. He's a spoofer who blames his teams' cyclical declines on anything other than his coaching and selection. This has happened in every team he's coached, including England. He got badly out-thought in the world cup final and was too rigid in his thinking to change. He picked out in the autumn series, and has been found out again. He's managed to pick the worst half back pairing in England yet again and refused to change it when it went wrong.
actually post match he said it was entirely his fault. He didn't blame his selection but he did blame his coaching.
By Streatham Shark
#24962
WillC wrote:
actually post match he said it was entirely his fault. He didn't blame his selection but he did blame his coaching.
He blamed his preparation. England's problems go much deeper than that, in particular the anti-rugby that coach insists on them playing, the fact that everything is centred on a player who cannot think on his feet, and the loyalty to players who are well past their sell-by date. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, and for England to come out playing an all court game next match, but everything since the RWC Final (when he got badly out-thought), I just don't see it happening.
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By Olyy
#24963
Next week: Even more kicking practise!

It's definitely a gameplan issue as our Plan A all autumn was to kick the leather off the ball - that's not an on field decision, because if it was then the coaches would be telling them to stop doing it after 6 straight games of it
By WillC
#24969
Streatham Shark wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:54 am
WillC wrote:
actually post match he said it was entirely his fault. He didn't blame his selection but he did blame his coaching.
He blamed his preparation. England's problems go much deeper than that, in particular the anti-rugby that coach insists on them playing, the fact that everything is centred on a player who cannot think on his feet, and the loyalty to players who are well past their sell-by date. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, and for England to come out playing an all court game next match, but everything since the RWC Final (when he got badly out-thought), I just don't see it happening.
And the head coach's preparation falls under his coaching in my opinion. Not disagreeing with anything you said other than the suggestion that EJ hasn't taken responsibility, when he has.
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By Yareet
#24972
Streatham Shark wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:54 am
loyalty to players who are well past their sell-by date.
Who exactly from Saturday's 23?

Daly; Watson, Slade, Lawrence, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Obano, Williams, Lawes, Earl, Robson, Ford, Malins.
By Olyy
#24973
Vunipola, Daly, Farrell and Youngs aren't there on merit, and haven't been for a while
Last edited by Olyy on Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Streatham Shark
#24976
Yareet wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:03 pm
Streatham Shark wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:54 am
loyalty to players who are well past their sell-by date.
Who exactly from Saturday's 23?

Daly; Watson, Slade, Lawrence, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Obano, Williams, Lawes, Earl, Robson, Ford, Malins.
Billy Vunipola, Daly, Youngs, Farrell.

It's also sticking with experiments that don't work, Daly at fullback in particular.
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By SSR
#24981
I have to say that I would have Daly in my 23 every time in preference to Slade.
Daly may not be the best fullback but at wing/centre he is rapid with a great boot for
back 3 cover.
Slade is very much "Emperors New Clothes" for me.
Jonathan Joseph is so much better than both at centre, very rarely lets England down and is excellent in defence and has that turn of pace and handling needed.
Not picking on Exeter but Hill does not cut it for me either.
Billy V is a busted flush and needs to be dropped.
Sorry, still in a bad mood from the weekend.
By ale shark
#24985
I think the myth of English strength in depth has been exposed. I'm not being insulting to Sale when I say if we're in the top 3 then god help the national team. Look at Friday night, 1st v 3rd, I can't think of a single EQP who put their case forward for their inclusion in the squad, from either side.

Can anyone on here honestly say we should have more players in the England squad? The one player with potential we did have we didn't pick, we let him leave and now he's turned his back on England. We picked an overseas lump instead.(He's a good lump though!)

It doesn't help Jones one bit when there's so many Sarries players in an underperforming team and Ben Youngs has a poor game, it's just so much ammunition to chuck at him. Right now BV is an insult to pretty much any EQP back row player out there, he's clearly not match fit and shouldn't be looking for form in an England shirt.

I'm sure Josh Beaumont would love another England cap but what's the point of him aspiring to get in the squad when there's someone in his potential position who isn't even playing club rugby, isn’t fit, isn’t in form and still gets selected? No one can have that much credit in the bank surely?
User avatar
By Yareet
#24996
Olyy wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:06 pm
Vunipola, Daly, Farrell and Youngs aren't there on merit, and haven't been for a while
I’ll stick my neck out and say that (assuming the your happens this Summer), 3 of those players will be involved in the Lions.

Which would imply that Gatland agrees with Jones.
By Olyy
#25164
He's jumped the shark on this,
Entirely predictable, but still ridiculous.

If Randall and Odogwu can't get game time at home vs Italy then when can they?
Looks like they were named in the squad to keep them away from Wales/Italy
User avatar
By Yareet
#25176
Olyy wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am
He's jumped the shark on this,
Entirely predictable, but still ridiculous.

If Randall and Odogwu can't get game time at home vs Italy then when can they?
Looks like they were named in the squad to keep them away from Wales/Italy
They’d need to be capped for that to happen. So 30 seconds off the bench v Italy would’ve been a better option.
By ale shark
#25178
I’m not in the get rid of Ben Youngs camp but come on, what’s it going to take to try something else for a match or two? We’re almost halfway through to the next World Cup already. Robson doesn’t exactly look to be an option either. We’re at home against Italy and the GS has gone, what better chance is there ever going to be? :brickwall:
By Streatham Shark
#25182
Van Cannonball wrote:Wonder how Paulo feels. In the form of his life and now stuck not playing.
Better than Lawrence I'd imagine. Poor lad doesn't get the ball all game and gets scapegoated for the one game where you'd imagine a newby would be given a chance to shine.

I like that in an era where we have an embarrassment of riches in the back row, Eddie sticks a second row in there and absolutely refuses to ditch a player who hasn't been effective for well over a year.
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By Elgar
#25184
Yareet wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:58 pm
Olyy wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:06 pm
Vunipola, Daly, Farrell and Youngs aren't there on merit, and haven't been for a while
I’ll stick my neck out and say that (assuming the your happens this Summer), 3 of those players will be involved in the Lions.

Which would imply that Gatland agrees with Jones.
Agree on Farrell.

Agree on Daly to the extent that I don't believe he deserves as much flack as he is getting at the moment. But, IMHO the back three spots will be very(!) competitive for the Lions this (if) summer.

Vunipola and Youngs I think would, without a big turnaround in form, be relatively lucky to tour.

On Billy V, I think we'd get so much more from him and that it would be so much more logically aligned with EJ's game plan for him to come off the bench for a power half hour rather than try to go for 60-80 mins from the start.
By Elgar
#25185
ShawSharkRedemption wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:21 pm
I have to say that I would have Daly in my 23 every time in preference to Slade.
Daly may not be the best fullback but at wing/centre he is rapid with a great boot for
back 3 cover.
Slade is very much "Emperors New Clothes" for me.
Jonathan Joseph is so much better than both at centre, very rarely lets England down and is excellent in defence and has that turn of pace and handling needed.
I like Slade as a player but agree that England's best options at 13 are Joseph, Daly then Slade.

If Nowell and Cokanasiga were fit, Watson and McConnochie were on their best form and Thorley was getting the opportunities he's earned then there'd be no sense in Daly or Joseph being deployed in the back three (or Slade at 15).
User avatar
By Yareet
#25186
Elgar wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:28 pm
Yareet wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:58 pm
Olyy wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:06 pm
Vunipola, Daly, Farrell and Youngs aren't there on merit, and haven't been for a while
I’ll stick my neck out and say that (assuming the your happens this Summer), 3 of those players will be involved in the Lions.

Which would imply that Gatland agrees with Jones.
Agree on Farrell.

Agree on Daly to the extent that I don't believe he deserves as much flack as he is getting at the moment. But, IMHO the back three spots will be very(!) competitive for the Lions this (if) summer.

Vunipola and Youngs I think would, without a big turnaround in form, be relatively lucky to tour.

On Billy V, I think we'd get so much more from him and that it would be so much more logically aligned with EJ's game plan for him to come off the bench for a power half hour rather than try to go for 60-80 mins from the start.
Youngs was the one I don't think will go.

The consensus among most fans is that Billy has had a good game in years however, either during or after the Autumn Nations Cup, I saw Lions selections from McGeeghan, Warburton and (I think it was) Barclay. The only consistent in their back rows was Billy.
User avatar
By poyntonshark
#25207
Last weeks performance may well have changed all of their minds. Billy basically only has these 6 nations games to influence the selectors. If he doesn't completely bully championship opposition then no way he will be going.
By Olyy
#25734
WillGriff John has been called into the Wales squad to replace the injured Dillon Lewis

Congrats WG! Should've been there from the start
User avatar
By Lord Elpus
#25737
EJ could have done the decent thing and called up Dombrandt to replace Willis and maybe added Marcus Smith to the squad.
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By Olyy
#25741
As much as I've lost patience with EJ recently, I can kind of understand calling up George Martin

By all accounts he's insanely talented, so it's good to get him exposure to the England training environment/see how he matches up against full blooded internationals in training/fitness/gym tests etc.

Whoever was getting called up, realistically, is never going to see game time - might as well give the few weeks in camp to a kid who will benefit from it, rather than demoralise one of the form players in the country by bringing them in and making them watch terribly out of form players play ahead of them no matter how well they perform.
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By Olyy
#26507
Not quite the 6N but Morozov starts for Russia vs Romania on Saturday,

Ostrikov (once of this parish) starts in the 2nd row, and while Romania haven't named their side yet Alex Taurus (o.o.t.p) is in their squad so could well be facing off against Big V in the scrum
By Olyy
#26728
Somehow WGJ hasn't made the Wales side for the Italy game,

Wales' loss is our gain
By Van Cannonball
#26733
Especially whilst JCW is injured. Perhaps there was a side agreement with the club given WGJ is confirmed as back to Wales for next season?
By Olyy
#27244
Tom starts for England,
Still no room for WGJ in the Wales side - which, selfishly, is good news for us

Joe Marchant, who was only called up into the England squad yesterday, on the bench in the 23 shirt.
Imagine Odogwu will be straight on the blower to the Italy coaches - he's been handled terribly.
If they had no intention of playing him why call him up? Gone how many weeks without actually playing, now? Best thing for his development would've been to leave him at Wasps, knowing they couldn't release unpicked players back to their clubs
By Elgar
#27245
Like the England backline a lot (presuming the Youngs on the teamsheet is the Ben Youngs v France and the best bits of the Wales game rather than the Ben Youngs that's played the rest of this comp).

In absence of Manu, I think the midfield needs one of Farrell or Slade at 12 with either of Joseph or Daly at 13. I'd say Lawrence is presently (but he could still develop) too Manu 'lite' to replace Manu as like-for-like instead of any of the aforementioned.

Next cab off the rank for that kind of 13 is IMHO rightly Marchant, not Odogwu.

Agree that Odogwu has been handled terribly. Hope this has worked out at least in his favour financially.

Also very unfair on Joseph. Not sure what he's done to deserve being indicated as lower than 4th choice in BOTH of the positions that he covers.
User avatar
By Yareet
#27247
Elgar wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:09 pm
Like the England backline a lot (presuming the Youngs on the teamsheet is the Ben Youngs v France and the best bits of the Wales game rather than the Ben Youngs that's played the rest of this comp).

In absence of Manu, I think the midfield needs one of Farrell or Slade at 12 with either of Joseph or Daly at 13. I'd say Lawrence is presently (but he could still develop) too Manu 'lite' to replace Manu as like-for-like instead of any of the aforementioned.

Next cab off the rank for that kind of 13 is IMHO rightly Marchant, not Odogwu.

Agree that Odogwu has been handled terribly. Hope this has worked out at least in his favour financially.

Also very unfair on Joseph. Not sure what he's done to deserve being indicated as lower than 4th choice in BOTH of the positions that he covers.
The England players have agreed to share the match fees amongst the whole squad. Instead of c£17,250 for 23 players, it's £14k for all 28. In other words, he's made £70k to hold tackle bags for 2 months.

I do wonder if Odoguwe came into the squad and Jones realised that he didn't have "it". Before this season, nobody was talking about Paolo as an international. He did hit a vein of form at the right time to be considered.

Under normal circumstances, he may have been replaced by Marchant earlier in the competition but that wasn't possible with the bubble.

It's harsh to ask why Jones brought Paolo in with "no intention of playing him". Until Jones sees the guy up close, how will he know?

Joseph got caught breaking lockdown. For Jones the Disciplinarian, that might be enough for stint on the naughty step.
By Olyy
#27249
Aye, my thoughts on Odogwu extend more over the length of the 6N than specifically this game - I rate Marchant and realistically would've had him over Odogwu in the squad in the first place. I hadn't considered the match fitness aspect of it, Odogwu hasn't played since Jan 8th so, despite training sessions etc., will likely be off the pace compared to Marchant


The biggest black mark in EJs selections, in all of this, is going for the 6-2 bench vs Italy rather than looking at Odogwu then
User avatar
By Yareet
#27255
Olyy wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:55 pm

The biggest black mark in EJs selections, in all of this, is going for the 6-2 bench vs Italy rather than looking at Odogwu then
Which is partly why I wonder whether Eddie (having seen him in camp) thinks that Paolo won't cut it as an international.

England needed to beat Italy but were always going to. Not playing Paolo was either an admission that it was a mistake to bring him into camp or a chance for others to re-find form - which didn't work!

Either way, Jones messed up.
By WillC
#27260
Olyy wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:31 am
Still no room for WGJ in the Wales side - which, selfishly, is good news for us
Was he in the original squad and if not has there been someone injured for him to replace?
By Olyy
#27261
WillC wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:12 pm
Olyy wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:31 am
Still no room for WGJ in the Wales side - which, selfishly, is good news for us
Was he in the original squad and if not has there been someone injured for him to replace?
He was called up a few weeks ago due to injury to Dillon Lewis, but hasn't featured in the matchday 23 yet
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