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Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:38 pm
by RinTin
Game is still ongoing i know, but in light of the Byron incident I'm interested to know everyone's thoughts on the niggle, face rubbing, celebrating, pulling people into rucks, throwing balls away etc that is creeping more and more into the game?

For me - Byron over reacted, I thought yellow but I can see what it was a red. BUT Foley had penalised Maitland for the his gamesmanship against Akker literally 2 minutes before, so surely Tompkins (due to rubbing his head and laughing in his face) should have been carded for his behaviour as it was a deliberate act to get a rise?

I don't know, I'm just getting fed up with the amount of it going on. Refs need to start clamping down on it or it makes a mockery of the core values of rugby in my opinion

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:47 pm
by DaveAitch
I agree, Tin.

That said if players let the referee and the TMO look for things the decision might have gone the other way.

Heaven forbid that had happened in a football game. Our horses can still be little high in rugby union.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm
by Olyy
Byron notorious for it himself, so very ironic for him to throw such a tantrum at it coming the other way

Should be an instant penalty, IMO - but that doesn't excuse Byron's actions, and the red card was very much the right call

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:00 pm
by poyntonshark
Don't think Byron reacted to that. He was laid on top of Tompkins, as Tompkins got up he raised Byrons legs, cause they were on his back, as Tompkins got free Byron was dropped to the ground. That is what upset him. Can't see how it could possibly have been yellow. Byron hit him, then threw him to the ground twice, all 3 red card offences in their own right.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:05 pm
by dinogyro
Actually, for the second 'throw', Byron just had hold of the Saracens player and was shoved from behind by another Saracens player.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:22 pm
by ageinghoody
poyntonshark wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:00 pm
Don't think Byron reacted to that. He was laid on top of Tompkins, as Tompkins got up he raised Byrons legs, cause they were on his back, as Tompkins got free Byron was dropped to the ground. That is what upset him. Can't see how it could possibly have been yellow. Byron hit him, then threw him to the ground twice, all 3 red card offences in their own right.
The ref seemed to be saying that he saw it as two yellow card offences in quick succession.

Which two of the three I don't know. :shrug:

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:30 pm
by Surbiton_Shark
Olyy wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm
Byron notorious for it himself, so very ironic for him to throw such a tantrum at it coming the other way

Should be an instant penalty, IMO - but that doesn't excuse Byron's actions, and the red card was very much the right call
My thoughts exactly - he always seems to play 'angry' - he's first in with niggle on every game. Lord knows why he saw the red mist on this occasion - always dishes it out - do that - you've got to take it back

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:36 pm
by DavenportSharky
Tompkins should have had a yellow for me. That kind of behaviour has no place in the sport and needs eradicating. Byron is a hothead. Always has been confrontational and it’s no surprise that he reacted to it. The throw to the floor was for me a red and hitting the hoarding was down to isikwe shoving Byron who had hold of Tompkins. I thought we should have had a penalty try just before that as an illegal tackle prevented the score. Our discipline was poor but a number of the penalties were at scrum time and the referee seemed to see everything in Sarries favour.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:34 pm
by PappjeShark
I agree with the OP that this kind of behaviour does need clamping down on. It’s another one that is treated with infuriating inconsistency. Remember a few seasons ago when Jono had a penalty reversed vs Falcons for ruffling someone’s hair (think they scored from it), yet within weeks similar actions were going unpunished. And there’s still loads of it.

Tompkins caused Byron to fall on his back, then goaded him, then tapped his head, so by rights he should have received a sanction. Not hard to imagine that that combination triggered Byron and for not keeping his cool, he received the sanction he deserved.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:36 pm
by chris1850
Rintin is right. There is far too much gamesmanship creeping into the game and Saracens are arch proponents of it. Watched them closely today and every single opportunity they had they go out of their way to goad the opposition. Maitland particularly is a really unpleasant and gobby type but the whole team are constantly at it.

That said, Byron has always dished it out too so I have zero sympathy for him. He shouldn't have reacted as he did and deservedly was red carded.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:17 pm
by DaveAitch
Judging by what is being said about behaviour presumably we will all against the thought of Chris Ashton turning up to play at Sale.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:46 am
by JohnJ of HM
We should take a leaf out of the Rugby League Book. They are very quick to penalise the hair riffling etc.

Someone humour an old fogey and tell me what UFC is.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:50 am
by RinTin
poyntonshark wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:00 pm
Don't think Byron reacted to that. He was laid on top of Tompkins, as Tompkins got up he raised Byrons legs, cause they were on his back, as Tompkins got free Byron was dropped to the ground. That is what upset him. Can't see how it could possibly have been yellow. Byron hit him, then threw him to the ground twice, all 3 red card offences in their own right.
Sorry Poynton Shark, but watching back I have to disagree on the reason behind the reaction. Byron didn't react until the hair ruffle and laugh in the face from Tompkins. I do agree that Byron was completely out of line with the response, but it was in reaction to Tompkins goading him.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:14 am
by Bronzbronx
JohnJ of HM wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:46 am
We should take a leaf out of the Rugby League Book. They are very quick to penalise the hair riffling etc.

Someone humour an old fogey and tell me what UFC is.
UFC-Ultimate fighting championship is mixed martial arts competitive fighting brand, the competitors combine boxing/wrestling/ jujitsu etc

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:46 am
by Clutch
Not clear what he reacted to. I thought it was the lift but likely to be a combination for him to lose it light that.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:10 am
by Elgar
Reacting the way he did was plain stupid. Cant' really complain about gamesmanship when you just walk into it as easily as that, very naive.

Can't see how it could have been anything other than a red (wouldn't be surprised at all to see a further sighting - you can't just start a fight with someone on the pitch and you especially can't keep going at them when they are clearly and deliberately not fighting back) and really you expect a lot, lot better from your senior players.

Can't remember the last time I saw a professional player lose their head as completely as that.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:34 am
by SimonG
A very long ban I hope.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:38 am
by Surbiton_Shark
Elgar wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:10 am
Reacting the way he did was plain stupid. Cant' really complain about gamesmanship when you just walk into it as easily as that, very naive.

Can't see how it could have been anything other than a red (wouldn't be surprised at all to see a further sighting - you can't just start a fight with someone on the pitch and you especially can't keep going at them when they are clearly and deliberately not fighting back) and really you expect a lot, lot better from your senior players.

Can't remember the last time I saw a professional player lose their head as completely as that.
Might get the name wrong - didn't our prop Faure (spelling?) completely lose it versus Leeds a few years ago against the All blacks scrum half - bloke with blond hair

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:57 am
by East Stand Shark
Surbiton,

I remember that incident well. I was sat in the front row at Headingley when Lionel Faure waded in on Justin Marshall and threw at least 4 or 5 punches right in front of us. A proper rugby match.......
Think Sale won that match 6-3 finishing with 13 men.
Happy memories

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:58 am
by East Stand Shark
Surbiton,

I remember that incident well. I was sat in the front row at Headingley when Lionel Faure waded in on Justin Marshall and threw at least 4 or 5 punches right in front of us. A proper rugby match.......
Think Sale won that match 6-3 finishing with 13 men.
Happy memories

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:02 pm
by Clutch
Imagine the ban for that now!! Well deserved anyway.

Why will Byron get a long ban. It’s a couple of throws. Not great danger. Essentially 2 yellow cards compounded. Second was as much about him getting pushed.

Red correct call, not sure on framework for non high tackle stuff but I’d expect 6 reduced to 3.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:44 pm
by DaveAitch
In the latter part of the episode he was pushed, but he could easily have let go of Tompkins.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:12 pm
by Streatham Shark
Does Byron have previous? I recall niggly incidents in the past, but not sure whether they resulted in cards. That will be a factor though, as will whether he pleads guilty or not. Or eats too many biscuits in a surly manner.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:21 pm
by DaveAitch
From statbunker: 7 sin bins, 2 red cards.
I can't immediately see if Sunday's red is one of the two.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:31 pm
by chris1850
DaveAitch wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:21 pm
From statbunker: 7 sin bins, 2 red cards.
I can't immediately see if Sunday's red is one of the two.
I seem to recall the commentator saying his red yesterday was the 2nd in his career

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:05 pm
by Clutch
Sent off at Worcester for 2 yellows. 3 or 4 seasons ago. Jennings scored winning try.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:25 pm
by DavenportSharky
Was it 2 yellows or have I imagined that? Foley only showed him a red and not a yellow followed by a red. Does that make any difference? Talking of losing it the incident that came in to my mind was Tuilagi v Ashton with Barnes giving them both a yellow.
10 years on it still makes me wince


Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:29 pm
by Olyy
It was a straight red that was given, my interpretation of what he said was that it was essentially (at least/a minimum) two yellows so no real need to deliberate over it because it was a red regardless so no need to spend ages pouring over the footage

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:59 pm
by Flumpty
DavenportSharky wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:25 pm
Talking of losing it the incident that came in to my mind was Tuilagi v Ashton with Barnes giving them both a yellow.
10 years on it still makes me wince

Could it be "Friends Reunited" at the AJBell ?

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:39 am
by stevene
I dont think the TMO did Foley any favours at the weekend if I am honest. Yes sarries were guilty (as often they are) of gamesmanship but equally we are not shy in this regard either (usually Jono, Byron, Faf or Tom C).

I suspect Byron will get 4 weeks halved to two with a guilty plea, remorse, education course etc etc.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:23 pm
by RinTin
https://www.planetrugby.com/loose-pass- ... -sympathy/

Really interesting points made here, much along the lines of our collective thoughts.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:37 pm
by Clutch
TMO was very active in spotting scrum offences from 50 yards.

I genuinely don’t get their role sometimes.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:09 pm
by ale shark
If I heard it correctly the TMO did call up a “sportsmanship” issue on the failed try in the move before the Byron incident. I don’t know if it was Tompkins but I thought the perpetrator had a 2 on his back, which Tompkins did.

I don’t think the ref did anything about it.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:52 pm
by ageinghoody
ale shark wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:09 pm
If I heard it correctly the TMO did call up a “sportsmanship” issue on the failed try in the move before the Byron incident. I don’t know if it was Tompkins but I thought the perpetrator had a 2 on his back, which Tompkins did.

I don’t think the ref did anything about it.
If we're talking about when Akker was tackled into touch (high?), I heard a reference to "a rugby values issue" and presumed that was why a penalty was awarded to us rather than a line-out to Sarries.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:46 pm
by ale shark
I thought we got the penalty for the high tackle and the other issue was ignored. Having said that, presumably it would have been a penalty try if it was the high tackle that was penalised.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:21 pm
by chris1850
My recollection is that we got the penalty for Maitlands "unsportsmanlike behaviour against the values of the game" for his goading of Akker after being dragged into touch. First time I have knowingly seen this penalised and I wish it happened more often. Having said that, Sarries would be off the penalty Richter scale most weeks if it was.

I am sure that no mention was made at the time about the clear high tackle and hand in the face by Maitland who really is a most unpleasant individual

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:52 pm
by DavenportSharky
I think it’s interesting that Itoje was overlooked by Eddie J for either the captaincy or vice captaincy in the absence of Farrell. The media seem to have had him as captain elect since he was in nappies. It may just be Jones’ bloody mindedness to select against pressure but it maybe that he has worked out his example might not be what is needed.

Re: Niggle and Celebrations (Byron Incident)

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:06 pm
by DaveAitch
Saracens have obviously discovered this unsportsmanlike bad behaviour since February 2020. I've just looked though all the posts for that game and the only mention I can find of such behaviour is "McGuigan diving on Segun after he scored and giving them another 3 points summed it all up."