By Olyy
#43432
Congratulations to Tom, Bevan and Raffi!

Image


Some odd choices in there, though
User avatar
By Flumpty
#43440
From the Daily Mail Link

Steve Diamond set to receive promotion at Worcester
Steve Diamond is in the frame to become Worcester’s director of rugby after a successful period as a consultant. He has been on an advisory contract at Sixways. Current director of rugby Alan Solomons will leave his post this summer.

Which comes as a shock to absolutely noone
By Elgar
#43478
No real surprises apart from Underhill , Bailey and Chessum (have to admit I had to google him)?

Underhill kind of makes sense if you assume that Curry and Lawes will definitely start and that we'll probably be looking to get Curry back into the 7 position and any of Simmonds, Dombrandt, Barbeary at 8. Or maybe Barbeary or Simmonds could play on the flank but either way all of those players have quite broader skill sets than Underhill. Maybe Underhill could feel unlucky to be behind Ludlam but maybe Ben Earl is unlucky to be behind either of those.

Maybe players like Chessum and Bailey make sense in 'squad numbers' 35 and 36 - for the development experience - compared to players like the Vunipolas and Ford who (presuming they haven't been Eddie Jones blacklisted - which they may have) can be trusted to play a top level test match like they've never been away even if they are called up at the last minute. (not sure how permissive the tournament rules are on that having said it?)


Ewells... I don't get it, never have. But that's old ground on here.



Edit:- also Atkinson. I don't really see him getting capped (not that I think he'd do a bad job) but I'm almost imagining that Eddie is using him in training as the examplar for Slade and Farrell about the sorts of lines, contact work, handling and vision that he wants in the 12 channel. (would argue that Farrell only does second first receiver type things in the 12 channel when he receives the ball quite deep - whereas Atkinson is very good for Gloucester at taking the ball right to or on the line without committing to only one or two of his options).
By chris1850
#43832
Hopefully Lawes is OK for Scotland but, if not, I guess Tom will be skipper? Would be a great honour for him and the Club.
gerlach liked this
By Olyy
#43904
Farrell now out of the whole 6N as he needs surgery again,

Talk that Curry will be captain, but not sure if that's in the interim until Lawes returns or regardless
By RinTin
#43913
Curry would be a great captain, he was certainly my choice in Autumn before Lawes stepped in. Lawes deserves to keep it, but if he is injured would be great to see TC step up.

Big question is what will the 9 10 12 13 combo be? If an inexperienced 12 steps in I think it's unlikely EJ will give Smith the reins. Equally it will influence his choice of 9 as well. Likely Youngs at 9 and Slade at 13 though. Would like Smith at 10 and Atkinson given a go at 12. Raffi and Smith vs someone like italy would be incredible to watch as they would tear them apart.
By Olyy
#43917
Youngs, Smith, Slade, Marchant played the majority of the SA game together and was the best our midfield has looked in a long time, I thought

Not sure if EJ will go for that again, but it'd be who I'd pick (whilst also being realistic in not putting Raffi in to start)
By Elgar
#43918
My prediction would be that he goes with as close as possible to the backline that played most of the middle 40 against South Africa. Which I think gives you Youngs; Smith; Malins; Slade; Marchant; Nowell; Steward.

I'd have no problem with Atkinson and think he'd do a great job but just can't see Eddie playing him.

Maybe he'd look at someone like Malins in the 12 shirt to keep Slade at 13 (then probably Marchant and Nowell are on the wings). But I think Slade's best position at test level is turning out to be 12 and there are some much more threatening runners that play in the three quarters than Slade and he needs to be paired with someone who's more of a strike runner than he is (which also works against Atkinson playing 12 with Slade at 13 - Malins does have a weird ability to beat defenders so maybe he and Slade could work as a combo but really, IMHO, it needs to be one of a Marchant or Daly if not a Tuilagi alongside one of a Slade, Malins or Atkinson).
Last edited by Elgar on Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By Olyy
#43924
Elgar wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:00 pm
My prediction would be that he goes with as close as possible to the backline that played most of the middle 40 against South Africa. Which I think gives you Youngs; Smith; Malins; Slade; Marchant; Nowell; Steward.

I'd have no problem with Atkinson and think he'd do a great job but just can't see Eddie playing him.

Maybe he'd look at someone like Malins in the 12 shirt to keep Slade at 13 (then probably Marchant and Nowell are on the wings). But I think Slade's best position at test level is turning out to be 12 and there are some much more threatening runners that play in the three quarters than Slade and he needs to be paired with someone who's more of a strike runner than he is (which also works against Atkinson playing 12 with Slade at 13 - Malins does have a weird ability to beat defenders so maybe he and Slade could work as a combo but really, IMHO, it needs to be one of a Marchant or Daly if not a Tuilagi alongside one of a Slade, Malins or Atkinson).
Think we'd be more likely to see Nowell in the centres, than Malins

Forgot that Daly is back in the mix now, too, and he's always been a big favourite of EJ
Maybe he'll go:
Youngs, Smith,
Malins, Slade, Daly, Marchant/Nowell, Steward

Raffi, Ford, Nowell/Marchant


I like Atkinson a lot, but not sure about at international level - seems an odd pick to me, I'd have gone for Ojomoh to get him in the environment as much as possible
By Olyy
#44418
Raffi released back to club duties for this weekend,

Not complaining as it's a big boost for us, but EJ preferring Randall to Raffi is....puzzling, to say the very least

Quins will have Lynagh and Northmore back
By Van Cannonball
#44419
I’m not sure it’s that surprising- Raffi’s advance into the England picture was faster than most would have expected. Randall has been very good and Raffi hasn’t actually played that much this season, in and out with niggles.

Very good news for us for the weekend although we’re always rubbish at Quins anyway.
User avatar
By Yareet
#44424
Olyy wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:38 pm
Raffi released back to club duties for this weekend,

Not complaining as it's a big boost for us, but EJ preferring Randall to Raffi is....puzzling, to say the very least

Quins will have Lynagh and Northmore back
I thought Randall was always preferred to Raffi but Randall got injured in camp pre-Autumn tests.

Raffi definitely took his chance but I can understand why Jones wants to see what Randall can do.

After eleventy billion years of relying on Ben Youngs, he’s finally giving others a shot.
By Olyy
#44429
I know Randall was ahead of Raffi before but I don't get why he would be now considering Raffis rise and Randall's fundamentals not improving
I wouldn't have Randall ahead of Spencer or Robson either, tbh

Raffi's recent injury can't have helped selection chances though
By Streatham Shark
#44449
It's disappointing for Raffi, but I'd rather he got a run of games for us than token twenty minutes after bench warming for Youngs. Randall is in very good form at the moment so his selection is justified in my view. What's odd is Jones dropping a scrum half as physical as raffi, which isn't his normal MO. Mind, he'll probably select Ford to cover 9 and ten from the bench and end up having to play Ewers in the centres or something.

Spencer's time has passed, unfortunately, in no small part due to how Jones treated him in 2019 when he was the form choice. Robson isn't the best selection out of the options available.

I've been trying to think of when England last had an embarrassment of riches at 9 like this. I think it would have been when Bracken, Gommers, Dawson and Healey came through in the mid to late nineties.
By RugbyMarvel
#44451
Raffi has barely played for us due to injury so it’s probably a wise decision for him to get 2/3 weeks of game time with Sale then look at bringing him in?

Sense he will be a player who needs to be closely managed. He is unbelievably physical and explosive, especially for his size - think that gets him the joint injuries etc.

Helpful for us and tbh, we massively need him at the club until Faf is back - Cliff can’t be seen as a starter and Warr is evidently not trusted. So I’ll be selfish on this occasion
By RinTin
#44453
As much as I believe Raffi is the England 9 in waiting, it does not surprise me that Randall is preferred. He has been playing week in week out for Bristol for a long period since his autumn injury and has been in terrific form. Raffi unfortunately hasn't played much at all.

I just hope Youngs will be replaced by these 2 sooner rather than later. In Raffi and Randall we have a scrum half battle similar to Youngs vs Care in my opinion. 2 young guys who continually push each other to get better and better.
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By Elgar
#44460
Agree with everything @RinTin 's just said. Makes particular sense to go with Randall for the kicking contest it might turn into looking at Edinburgh's weather forecast for Saturday.

As @Olyy said, great news for our options v Quins!


(irony being that arguably Danny Care should be at least in England's 23 in Edinburgh on Saturday)
By Carlos
#44467
RinTin wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:40 am
As much as I believe Raffi is the England 9 in waiting, it does not surprise me that Randall is preferred. He has been playing week in week out for Bristol for a long period since his autumn injury and has been in terrific form. Raffi unfortunately hasn't played much at all.

I just hope Youngs will be replaced by these 2 sooner rather than later. In Raffi and Randall we have a scrum half battle similar to Youngs vs Care in my opinion. 2 young guys who continually push each other to get better and better.
I agree, also England are moving from ten years of Youngs/Care sharing the role, into presumably 10 years of Raf & Randall doing the same. It would actually be prudent to Jones to pick one and stick with them for 10/15 games so that we don't have two green 9s - regardless of which ends up being the long term starter, or who ends up with more caps. And given Raf's recent injury, it makes sense to get Randall some game time - even if it's just so he's experienced when he's 21 to Raffi's 9 in 12/24 months.
By Olyy
#44471
chris1850 wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:11 pm
Box kicking is the weakest part of Randall's game however
Yeah, he's really not the type of 9 you'd expect EJ to pick
His strong points are the speed of his game and his excellent quick tap game,
His pass is nothing special (for someone in international contention, at least) and his kicking is below par
Odd choice for a Murrayfield game with rain forecast

Though with 3 9s in the squad someone was always going to miss out, and Raffi has only played 50 odd minutes in the last month or so
By Van Cannonball
#44675
Well extra glad it was Randall sat with splinters for 80 mins rather than Raffi.

Think we did suffer from lack of carriers as highlighted pre-game, and Youngs style just doesn’t match to the backs that were outside him.
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By Olyy
#44685
Raffi's stock soaring,
Randall not trusted with even a few seconds off the bench, and Youngs poor and sluggish apart from one break (where he still got chased down with ease)
Van Cannonball wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:43 pm
Think we did suffer from lack of carriers as highlighted pre-game, and Youngs style just doesn’t match to the backs that were outside him.
this is always the frustrating thing with EJ, the issues are obvious pre-game, and then come to pass exactly as predicted
Then every now and then he pulls a big result out of the bag and it justifies the months/years of dross between
By RugbyMarvel
#44693
Criminal use (or lack of) the bench.

Nowell should have replaced Daly after 50 min. Randall for Youngs too. Dombrandt should have come on earlier.

If Eddie can’t find 8 players from the HUGE pool of England players to be on the bench, who he trusts to play, then he is failing in his role.

Raffi should have been at 21 clearly if Randall wasn’t going to be trusted. Youngs was awful, his box kicking poor, slow to get the ball away, just generally an average prem player.
Elgar, SimonG liked this
By ipswich shark
#44700
100% agree. I was screaming at the Tv to bring on Dombrandt and Nowell. Yet again if plan A fails carry on plugging away with plan A.
User avatar
By poyntonshark
#44817
Except, for a change, plan A was a decent plan, just the tiny matter of having the wrong part at the beginning of the chain. I don't actually think Youngs was terrible, but he can no longer play the game with the pace that England needed, that much was obvious after 20 minutes. Yes it would be a big deal to bring Randall on, but if you are not going to trust him you may as well pick Danny Care on the bench. I also thought Simmonds and Ludlam put in a decent shift, but England needed a big bulldozing unit somewhere. Again obvious early on. (As has been said, obvious before kick-off). Scotlands defence was superb, we shouldn't be surprised, they had the best defence last year too. England needed someone to challenge them physically with ball in hand.
Not all dom and gloom, I liked England's intent to use the backs much more than of late, unfortunately for Sale Manu is the player that will make a difference there and EJ will surely waste no time bringing him back in.
By ale shark
#44845
RugbyMarvel wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:18 pm
Raffi should have been at 21 clearly if Randall wasn’t going to be trusted. Youngs was awful, his box kicking poor, slow to get the ball away, just generally an average prem player.
I’d expect Eddie to experiment a bit against Italy and maybe go with Youngs at 9, we need more time to see what he can do for England.
By Streatham Shark
#44847
poyntonshark wrote:Except, for a change, plan A was a decent plan, just the tiny matter of having the wrong part at the beginning of the chain. I don't actually think Youngs was terrible, but he can no longer play the game with the pace that England needed, that much was obvious after 20 minutes. Yes it would be a big deal to bring Randall on, but if you are not going to trust him you may as well pick Danny Care on the bench. I also thought Simmonds and Ludlam put in a decent shift, but England needed a big bulldozing unit somewhere. Again obvious early on. (As has been said, obvious before kick-off). Scotlands defence was superb, we shouldn't be surprised, they had the best defence last year too. England needed someone to challenge them physically with ball in hand.
Not all dom and gloom, I liked England's intent to use the backs much more than of late, unfortunately for Sale Manu is the player that will make a difference there and EJ will surely waste no time bringing him back in.
It worries me that Jones thinks the line can only be broken with a big runner, and so England are treading water until Manu's fit. The ball was kicked away by the outside backs far too often, which can only have been a directive from the top, as they're not the sort of players to do that instinctively, and "kick the pill to the opposition" has been one of his genius tactics for away games for a long time, he's just had to move it further down the line since Captain fantastic got injured.

Two things struck me yesterday. Firstly Our England returnees fared better than the Quins ones. Lynagh has been out of form for a while, but Northmore was much lesser a player than when he went into camp (and was also hoofing the ball away needlessly at times). By contrast Raffi and Bevan looked like they had a point to prove.

The other thing was the speed of service from all the 9s was vastly superior to Youngs' ponderous delivery, and their vision was far better, including Care, for all his messing about at the back of the scrum. He wouldn't make the bench for Sale, and wouldn't be first choice at a lot of other clubs, but for Jones he's indispensable. That's indicative of a pretty sizeable problem for England.
By Clutch
#44876
He’d be 6th choice behind Nye!!

Youngs can be great. I’ve seen him have some belters for England recently. When England play well Youngs is often a key cog in that.

I don’t mind him starting. I wouldn’t myself, but it’s more the disrespect at not brining Randall on and not seeing that for whatever reason Youngs was slowing down an exiting lightweight back line. Which suggests Youngs was doing exactly as planned. Same for Smith who was standing ridiculously deep. Buck stops with Eddie on that one and I can’t make any viable excuse.
By Olyy
#44877
Ashman not named in Scotland's injury list, but they have called Dave Cherry in to train
Maybe rib cartilage injury? Painful but not particularly long term, I think?
By RinTin
#44881
I'm a Raffi fan as much as anyone else here, but I'm confused over all the calls saying that he should have been on the bench instead of Randall. Randall is the form SH in the country right now. He has played more games for England, has trained in the camp on more occasions, has played more for club this season and is ahead of Raffi currently based on form.

I try and be as unbiased as possible with matters such as this, and Randall is correctly in front of Raffi at this time. Not to say that won't change moving forward, but right now it is correct.

Error in my mind is still persisting with Youngs who has 1 good game every 3 or 4.....
DaveAitch liked this
By Clutch
#44886
I think you are right. Rafi has been injured. But Jones clearly thinks Randall is a pointless waste of space. Rafi got 30 mins against SA at least. Rafi has a higher ceiling as well. He’s only been a season. He’s probably had 6-7 starts for Sale. Get him in and blood him so he’s the first choice 9 for the WC.
By Elgar
#44906
Rafi, Randall, Care, Robson and even Mitchell, Spencer, Wigglesworth have all been more effective at Premiership level than Youngs has for the last two years (shorter in Rafi's special case for obvious reasons).

I'm not too hung up on who replaces Youngs at present compared to how it's accepted by Jones that Youngs only turns in a good enough performance once every 3 or 4 matches - or sometimes not all during the six nations and only in the autumn against Southern Hemisphere sides that struggle to defend the fringes of set pieces in the way that gets done in the 6 Nations.

I'm not trying to re-write history and say that Youngs hasn't been a brilliant 9 in the past but it really is in the past now.

(In fact Scotland had two English qualified 9s that went through the English pathways and performed better than Youngs that day).
RinTin liked this
By stevene
#44911
Jones likes control at 9 (dont forget his aussie side had Gregan at 9). Cant see Raffi starting currently but can see him on the bench for the remainder of the 6N's giving him 30 mins a game. Dont think he thinks Randall is as good as BT sport do which is why he doesnt get game time (a la Dan Robson). I kind of agree with him to be honest.

What I struggle with is I am one of the few who seems to appreciate Jones (pre last year) being a coach who knows his own mind and selects a team based on his own mind (and to damn with the critics). Now he seems to be selecting with one mind on keeping his job if I am honest and the team are a complete muddle.

He clearly didnt see Simmonds as an international 8 but a product of the exeter style and a centre playing 8. I actually agree with him. He used to pick Billy V come hell or high water. Now Simmonds is at 8 and Billy V isnt in the squad even though he will, injury free, be 31 at next years world cup!

He contiues to play Youngs at 9 despite the rest of the team not suiting the style of 9 Youngs now is. However clearly doesnt trust Randall who fits the selection of the rest of the team.

Centre is too lightweight but that could be offset with a more powerful backrow as without Lawrence and Manu we have limited options that are, to me, international class.

Apparently Genge and LCD are part of the 'leadership group' despite to me them both being bench players who impact the game at international level with Marler and George being better starting options.

All very very muddled and is more likely, if england dont do well this 6N's, cost him his job more than stubborn old eddie would have done with a decent set of performances in the 6N's. If england dont beat wales then this weekend is a wooden spoon decider as can't see us beating ireland or france.
By DaveAitch
#44913
I'm not sure I fully agree with the idea that "Jones doesn't fully trust Randall" any more than he doesn't fully trust his other non-preferred players. I doubt George would have got on if Cowan-Dickie had not been binned. Nowell was introduced at 80+1 and Ewels at 77.
Ford got on at 63 minutes, for Smith. One gets the feeling that neither of them would have had a look in had Farrell been fully fit.
Jones knows what he likes, and likes what he knows.
By Clutch
#44918
Either way it’s ridiculous. To not use your bench properly at international level is ridiculous. Genuinely think that’s the difference between the two sides.

We’ve seen it under Dimes when he didn’t trust his bench. We used to hang on in last 20. And to be fair Dimes had a small squad to work with. Jones doesn’t have that excuse.

I’ve generally been pro Jones but that game has bamboozled me.
By Olyy
#44923
Ludlam injured, Launchbury called up

Feel for Ludlam, thought he was one of Englands best players vs Scotland, but I'm very happy for Launchbury - always been one of my favourite players

I imagine a lock being called up for a backrower suggests that Hill's injury isn't clearing up as quickly as they'd hoped
By Clutch
#44926
So will Lawes be back? If not will back row be Curry Simmonds and Dombrandt?! Three no 8s in the team
By RinTin
#44927
Clutch wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:02 pm
So will Lawes be back? If not will back row be Curry Simmonds and Dombrandt?! Three no 8s in the team
Lawes still recovering apparently. I'd imagine he'll got either Maro or Isikwe in the backrow, with either Simmonds or Dombrandt starting at 8. Launchbury or Ewels starting in the second row.

After that Scotland game we need to field first choice against Italy and build momentum.
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