[Olyy]

Seeing as we're past the warmups figured we should have a thread for the main event

Tom, George and Manu all starting for England,
Alex Mitchell, once (briefly) of this parish, too

Feels a bit of a risk putting Tom straight into start after only a few training sessions over the last few months, but will be good to see him back on the pitch

Expecting an England loss, we've continued to nosedive since the loss to them in the Autumn whereas they had a decent TRC

[Olyy]

Creevy on the bench for Argentina:

[SSR]

Would not be surprised if Lavanini takes Tom out with a flying shoulder.
Also feel Tom would be better off the bench first time out.
I am expecting a Red card as a statement. I feel that we are on a hiding to nothing.
Play full bore from the start and we will get cards. Hold back and we lose badly.
Could just as easily be the other way round though.
Just hope we give it a shot and play well.

[Flumpty]

At this stage, sadly, I'm full of apathy for the 2023 RWC.

[RinTin]

Argentina 6-2 split on the bench. That worries me given our pack has not been able to out muscle any opposition in recent times.

Hope our boys go well.

[poyntonshark]

If we were to play the right way we have a chance, not much sign of England playing that way other than first 15-20 against Fiji. If we try to take the Argies on up front we will get battered.

[Elgar]

Looks great on paper. Seems hopeless on form.

[ageinghoody]

Just been reading an Aunty Beeb article on the historical background to the forthcoming France/All Blacks clash.

This sentence leaped out at me :-

"They were wretched in the 2019 Six Nations. An exasperated French Federation responded by all but abandoning that year's World Cup as a lost cause."

Seems familiar!

[SimonG]

Just been reading an Aunty Beeb article on the historical background to the forthcoming France/All Blacks clash.

This sentence leaped out at me :-

"They were wretched in the 2019 Six Nations. An exasperated French Federation responded by all but abandoning that year's World Cup as a lost cause."

Seems familiar!

Ah but the difference is that the French federation recognised it!

[Surbiton_Shark]

Just been reading an Aunty Beeb article on the historical background to the forthcoming France/All Blacks clash.

This sentence leaped out at me :-

"They were wretched in the 2019 Six Nations. An exasperated French Federation responded by all but abandoning that year's World Cup as a lost cause."

Seems familiar!

Ah but the difference is that the French federation recognised it!

Didn’t know we had given Borthwick a 5 year contract regardless of his performance during the World Cup

Steve Borthwick’s job is safe even if England flop at World Cup - absolute incompetence from the very top

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6a36 ... e2722d9acd

[Flumpty]

At this stage, sadly, I'm full of apathy for the 2023 RWC.

Mrs Flumpty has put some beers in the fridge for me, so I have some cold ones to enjoy whilst the game is on tonight.
The faintest signs of some embers are now evident.

[ageinghoody]

Just been reading an Aunty Beeb article on the historical background to the forthcoming France/All Blacks clash.

This sentence leaped out at me :-

"They were wretched in the 2019 Six Nations. An exasperated French Federation responded by all but abandoning that year's World Cup as a lost cause."

Seems familiar!

Ah but the difference is that the French federation recognised it!

Didn’t know we had given Borthwick a 5 year contract regardless of his performance during the World Cup

Steve Borthwick’s job is safe even if England flop at World Cup - absolute incompetence from the very top

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6a36 ... e2722d9acd

Pretty much what I was getting at in my earlier post.

Sacking EJ when they did was the signal that the RFU was following the French Federation's example of "all but abandoning that year's World Cup as a lost cause."

I doubt Borthwick (or anyone remotely qualified for that matter) would have contemplated taking on the job on any other basis at the time EJ was shown the door.

[Olyy]

Sometimes I question why I love this sport

[Olyy]

Ford's dropgoals restoring my faith though - didn't know he had a 50m DG in the repertoire!


Edit: Huge games from Ford and Manu, just massive

[Elgar]

England have done it so many times in a row lately that one could be forgiven for forgetting about the possibility that the other team might not actually turn up.

[Surbiton_Shark]

Watched the game was very little expectations from us….

Firstly the cards. Not overly surprised about Tom’s. If you’re pretty much bolt upright in contact then you put yourself at risk. Maybe didn’t help he had barely played any rugby since the prem final. Was amazed their 10 didn’t get a red - anyhow moving on

The pack really turned up - where on earth has that been for the last X months??? - George controlled it well - Manu was great.

I was trying to get carried away at half time, our forwards looked tired…..and no way could Argentina play like drains in the second half particularly with a team talk.

How wrong I was - they dropped everything possible then the ref decided to ping them off the park!

Let’s see what Tom’s ban will be and how much the lawyers will earn out of it on appeal

[Flumpty]

Let’s see what Tom’s ban will be and how much the lawyers will earn out of it on appeal

I'm going to go for Sending Off Sufficient - after looking at the incident from many angles, they'll see that TC was partially unsighted, due to a Argentinian blocker/lazy runner. It's not obvious when you just focus on the contact, but roll it back a few seconds and it starts to look like a rugby incident - even more so when the airborne player twists in mid air and starts to sink into a crouch for the landing.

Rugby incident. SOS

[Olyy]

Not even a TMO check!
Just a little consistency, is that too much to ask for?

In the past three games we've had three head on heads, one a red one a yellow and one a play on!

[Lord Elpus]

Fwiw I thought both incidents were "orange" cards - and was sure Tom's would be a red.

[Olyy]

Another game choc full of refereeing controversy

Feel for Fiji, hope they can still make it out of their group but will probably need Wales to slip up against Georgia and I don't think this Georgia side is as strong as it has been in the past

[Clutch]

Australia are beatable. Fiji messed up. Lots of lazy ref bashing but only themselves to blame.

[Lord Elpus]

Fiji's handling let them down but Carley was very poor. wales penalised repeatedly in the red zone but no card, Fiji offended once and a yellow - after which wales scored. I don't see why the TMO disallowed the 2nd try after Carley said onfield decision try.

[Olyy]

I could understand the double movement call - felt a bit harsh as he was being dragged forwards by two team mates at the same time so his knee movement probable didn't actually contribute any forward momentum,
The two biggest standouts for me were Dan Biggar offside at the ruck and tackling the 9 before the ball was out - 2m from the line that's a yellow, even ignoring the final warning they were on
The 2nd was Ryan Elias' no arms tackle which was deemed legal somehow - not a PT (as Rowlands was there) but definitely a yellow considering they were on their final (final) warning. Elias was then the try scorer at the other end of the pitch a few minutes later

Fiji were definitely very inaccurate in the red zone, though, and Wales' goalline defence (though often illegal) was ferocious - think if you put the successful + missed tackles together Wales attempted over 300 hits in the game, that's an insane amount

[DavenportSharky]

Fantastic game to watch. All credit to Fiji for first rate entertainment. If only all rugby was played like that the AJB would be sold out all season.
However also have to admire the sheer effort that Wales put in and also some excellent open play too.
Than the negativity. Carley and the TMO were embarrassing. Managed to talk themselves out of “on field it’s a try” twice. Persistent offending so close to the line should have warranted yellow. Some of Wales gamesmanship was very disappointing. Totally unnecessary and well against the spirit of the match. What was Biggar’s problem with George North?? Not sure I can remember anything like that demonstration of vitriol to a teammate. Out of order on the field and he should be fined by Gatland.
I hope Fiji make the quarters as they deserve to and it’s great for rugby and for a very small nation.

[RinTin]

What was Biggar’s problem with George North?? Not sure I can remember anything like that demonstration of vitriol to a teammate. Out of order on the field and he should be fined by Gatland.

In Bigger's defence (not something i think i have ever uttered before) they were winning by 4 points having just defended for a solid 3-4 minutes in the 22. They got the turnover on their own 5 metre line with the clock in the red and decided to run it when it was not on in any way. Fiji had shown how tough they would be by that point so it was stupid arrogant play from Wales.

I personally did not enjoy the way he behaved, but he was right to call out his team mates. May be a little more restraint in the future though from him, but it is something North, Williams, Tompkins etc won't forget.

[dinogyro]

Biggar has some front! He's not exactly error-free himself.

Bawling out a teammate isn't good for team cohesion. Had I been North, I would wait until we were alone and punched him. But that's just me!

I think I remember Owen Farrell doing the same sort of shouting at a teammate. Again, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[SimonG]

Let’s see what Tom’s ban will be and how much the lawyers will earn out of it on appeal

I'm going to go for Sending Off Sufficient - after looking at the incident from many angles, they'll see that TC was partially unsighted, due to a Argentinian blocker/lazy runner. It's not obvious when you just focus on the contact, but roll it back a few seconds and it starts to look like a rugby incident - even more so when the airborne player twists in mid air and starts to sink into a crouch for the landing.

Rugby incident. SOS

Trouble is they rarely (never?) say a sending off is sufficient punishment unless it's for a second yellow do they? It's either a ban (reduced if you haven't been on a course telling you how to tackle for a couple of months) or the red card is rescinded (if you are the England captain and a World Cup is about to start). A short ban I suspect.

[Flumpty]

Let’s see what Tom’s ban will be and how much the lawyers will earn out of it on appeal

I'm going to go for Sending Off Sufficient - after looking at the incident from many angles, they'll see that TC was partially unsighted, due to a Argentinian blocker/lazy runner. It's not obvious when you just focus on the contact, but roll it back a few seconds and it starts to look like a rugby incident - even more so when the airborne player twists in mid air and starts to sink into a crouch for the landing.

Rugby incident. SOS

Trouble is they rarely (never?) say a sending off is sufficient punishment unless it's for a second yellow do they? It's either a ban (reduced if you haven't been on a course telling you how to tackle for a couple of months) or the red card is rescinded (if you are the England captain and a World Cup is about to start). A short ban I suspect.

I'm still going with SOS after viewing all of the available camera angles, over an extended period of the time which the bunker officer wasn't able to do etc etc. New systems, new techchnologies, still ironing out issues etc etc.

[SimonG]

Biggar has some front! He's not exactly error-free himself.

Bawling out a teammate isn't good for team cohesion. Had I been North, I would wait until we were alone and punched him. But that's just me!

I think I remember Owen Farrell doing the same sort of shouting at a teammate. Again, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

To be honest you need players to take responsibility on the pitch and to make it clear to team mates when they have cocked up. If the spirit is right it will be accepted where deserved and forgotten very quickly.

Biggar's habit of extending his criticism to the match officials is quite another matter of course.

[dinogyro]

I would think that shouting at people who have made a mistake will stifle future creativity.

[DavenportSharky]

The thought of Llanwhatsitheddluaraf Grammar School U13 fly half yelling at Evans minor after he has knocked on because he saw the Welsh fly half do it fills me with concern.

[RinTin]

I would think that shouting at people who have made a mistake will stifle future creativity.

In this scenario it is not a bad thing to stifle it! No chance of going the length, clock in the red, Fiji offering a stern test. Eyes up and heads on rugby needs to be apply.

[SimonG]

I would think that shouting at people who have made a mistake will stifle future creativity.

It would if you are a shrinking violet I agree.

[ageinghoody]

... Llanwhatsitheddluaraf ...

Saint Somebody Slow Police?

[DavenportSharky]

Well spotted! ageinghoody

[poyntonshark]

Tom up before the beak later today.

[Olyy]

Tom gets 6 down to 3 down to 2,
Which is standard, can't be too aggrieved at that

Kriel, Biggar and the Chilean player all avoid citings
Can feel aggrieved at the lack of consistency though

[RinTin]

Tom gets 6 down to 3 down to 2,
Which is standard, can't be too aggrieved at that

Kriel, Biggar and the Chilean player all avoid citings
Can feel aggrieved at the lack of consistency though

I have no issue with the Curry ban.... until i see the others weren't even cited.

When I heard earlier that Kriel and Sigren (Chile) were away scott free I fully expected no further punishment for Curry due to the inconsistency question it would raise. How on earth he can get 3 games and Sigren especially got a yellow is baffling.

[Flumpty]

Tom gets 6 down to 3 down to 2,
Which is standard, can't be too aggrieved at that

Can feel aggrieved at the lack of consistency though

IMO, very harsh & as Olly says, very inconsistent from the RWC

[ale shark]

If the IRB are trying to attract new fans surely they need to come out an explain why Tom got a Red card and 2 match ban whilst others got absolutely nothing. As someone who has closely followed rugby for 35 years I couldn’t explain it to anyone.

[SimonG]

Tom gets 6 down to 3 down to 2,
Which is standard, can't be too aggrieved at that

Kriel, Biggar and the Chilean player all avoid citings
Can feel aggrieved at the lack of consistency though

As expected.

[eBike]

Consistency is the latest buzzword but I wonder how it can be achieved. Answers on a postcard to World Rugby ? Hawkeye, A.I., the Pope

I'll throw this in as an opener to pragmatic suggestions - anyone spotted getting a serious knock to the head is currently sent for a 10 minute HIA, should that automatically trigger a Foul Play Review for both participants (if appropriate), independent of the on field officials.

Personally, I think consistency is unobtainable under the current circumstances . Perhaps never. Perhaps more worrying is the YouGov survey that reported more and more parents DON'T want their kids getting involved in rugby (I must find it again).

Suggest away........

[SimonG]

Consistency is the latest buzzword but I wonder how it can be achieved. Answers on a postcard to World Rugby ? Hawkeye, A.I., the Pope

I'll throw this in as an opener to pragmatic suggestions - anyone spotted getting a serious knock to the head is currently sent for a 10 minute HIA, should that automatically trigger a Foul Play Review for both participants (if appropriate), independent of the on field officials.

Personally, I think consistency is unobtainable under the current circumstances . Perhaps never. Perhaps more worrying is the YouGov survey that reported more and more parents DON'T want their kids getting involved in rugby (I must find it again).

Suggest away........

I agree things are inconsistent and that we should strive to improve this but would suggest that this inconsistency is no reason for complaint when dangerous play is rightfully dealt with (no matter how accidental it is). Players health (whoever they play for) is too important.

[FarnhamShark]

I didn't have an issue with the Fiji yellow - that looked fair to me, and I wouldn't want refs to start thinking of not issuing yellows because they missed previous offences. The fundamental issue with that match was Carley's failure to penalise repeated deliberate infringements by Wales within 5 metres of their own line, and whatever you do after the match, it's too late - Fiji have still lost.

One other thought, though - we all have suggestions for how various laws could/should be amended to improve the way games are run. How about SSSC getting 6 or 8 regular supporters (ideally current or past players and refs) in a room to collate and brainstorm ideas and suggestions, then get the Club to publicise the resulting report as widely as possible. We might even shame the various authorities into addressing a few more of the things we all moan about every week.

[ageinghoody]

...
Players health (whoever they play for) is too important.

Indeed it is, but any contact sport (and even some supposedly non-contact ones) involves a trade-off between safety and risk.

We could safeguard players health by, say, having a softer ball for cricket or hockey, outlawing head shots in boxing (not sure how we'd mitigate risk in MMA but I've never watched that!). I'm sure we can all come up with plenty of other suggestions.

How far can we go in eliminating risk of injury, in any sport, before the whole character of that sport is "mitigated" out of existence?

I fear RU is right on the verge of that fate.

[ledzepsfr]

Just a thought, I couldn't find answer on tinterweb. After the GF masterclass in drop goals, how many drops did Sir Charles score in international rugby. I believe he is still top points scorer btw.

[Yareet]

Just a thought, I couldn't find answer on tinterweb. After the GF masterclass in drop goals, how many drops did Sir Charles score in international rugby. I believe he is still top points scorer btw.

Top scorer in a game (v Romania on debut. I think Axe played that game as well).

Seems to noy have scored as many drops for England as one may think. Just 3 - or as George calls it "Saturday"

http://en.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/player/13753.html

[eBike]

All good points made.

Today's Telegraph Sport has an interesting article by Sam Coles

World Rugby concerned fans are fuelling ‘trial by social media’ for referees
Exclusive: World Cup governing body fears limited replay angles are creating a rush to judgment against players and officials

If anyone tech enough can find it and post it I think it would make an interesting read.

Who's be a ref these days ! Certainly not me

[eBike]

It was Ben Coles.

See if this works for you

https://pressreader.com/article/281728389115181

[SimonG]

...
Players health (whoever they play for) is too important.

Indeed it is, but any contact sport (and even some supposedly non-contact ones) involves a trade-off between safety and risk.

We could safeguard players health by, say, having a softer ball for cricket or hockey, outlawing head shots in boxing (not sure how we'd mitigate risk in MMA but I've never watched that!). I'm sure we can all come up with plenty of other suggestions.

How far can we go in eliminating risk of injury, in any sport, before the whole character of that sport is "mitigated" out of existence?

I fear RU is right on the verge of that fate.

You can't eliminate the risk of injury but what you can do is to try to eliminate the risk of unnecessary injury in this case by tacking high. I don't see that in doing this it will mitigate the sport out of existence.