By Bucks1861
#63956
Thank you Fiji 🇫🇯. Well done England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

But think we will be smashed I the semi-final.
By DavenportSharky
#63963
What an extraordinary situation. Possibly the worst team in the 6 Nations is now the only Northern Hemisphere team left in the World Cup. Tonight and last nights matches were superb and those should have been the semi finals. Can’t see beyond a NZvSA final.
By SimonG
#63977
ale shark wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:25 am
England - only unbeaten team left in the tournament :dance:
Reminds me of New Zealand. Only unbeaten team in the 2010 Football World Cup Finals.
By Olyy
#64010
https://www.racing92.fr/article/communi ... sova/31847
suffered a violent tackle without the arms of the English player n°7 thus injuring his left knee
Never seen a club put out a statement like that before, usually just "X will be out for Y weeks after suffering an injury", bit salty

They should be more annoyed at Fiji's medics seeing as he played on for like an hour after the incident, that won't have done him any good
By RinTin
#64012
Fiji are viewed as the good guys, everyone's favourite second team. Means they can do no wrong. Curry is the easy target. I must admit it was a poor tackle, but not malicious.

Any mention anywhere of Kuruvoli stamping on Danny Care's foot at the scrum? No? Oh that's right, Fiji can do no wrong.
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By DavenportSharky
#64014
I hope Tom has not been reading the Luke Cowan-Dickie tackling manual given to him at tackle school?
By Surbiton_Shark
#64018
Not quite sure what was up with Tom C - maybe a combo of little match play and over eagerness.

Seemed a bit like a headless chicken at times - most unlike him. Not sure he'll make a starting spot on Sat after that performance
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By eBike
#64020
Just announced :-

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Farrell (capt), Mitchell; Marler, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Sinckler, Chessum, Vunipola, Care, Ford, Lawrence.

Discuss
By Olyy
#64021
Makes sense,
Borthwick was never going to change up much - Talk that maybe Smith is out with HIA but even if not I think that Steward would start as it's predicted to be wet weather and SA targeted France with the highball

Surprised to see Martin in for Chessum though - Martin bigger and bulkier and heavier tackler, but Chessum better in the setpiece
Horses for courses I suppose

Cole bringing back memories of the 19 final but then he's still a better scrummager than Sinckler and Stuart so....🤷‍♂️
By RinTin
#64022
The lack of pace in our backline from 9-15 is enormous compared to SA. Pace of course isn't everything, but we have seen SA like to swing it wide.

Pack wise I am surprised by Martin. Personally i don't even think he should be in world cup squad let alone starting but there you go. He's someone Borthwick knows well. I would have preferred Lawes (I know he hasn't played 2nd for a long time) in the row with Ludlum called up at blindside.

Bench is strong and dynamic apart from the lumbering mess that is Billy V. Others should all make positive impacts.
By Jb-280151
#64026
Cole maybe a better scrummager than Stuart or Sinckler. So where is Si Mac who put Cole to bed when he last visited the AJB.
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By Yareet
#64027
Jb-280151 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:52 pm
Cole maybe a better scrummager than Stuart or Sinckler. So where is Si Mac who put Cole to bed when he last visited the AJB.
Behind Marler and Genge. I love Si Mac but Marler is a proven test scrummager.
By Olyy
#64028
I love SiMac but he'd be behind VRR and Obano as well (at least one of whom should be in France right now)
By RinTin
#64032
And behind Bevan as well surely??

It's Schonert who I thought deserved a shot at tighthead.
User avatar
By Yareet
#64034
RinTin wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 8:00 am
And behind Bevan as well surely??

It's Schonert who I thought deserved a shot at tighthead.
It’s a nuance but for me Bev and Si are different looseheads.

Bev is more like Genge, Si more like Marler.
By ageinghoody
#64048
Yareet wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:28 am
RinTin wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 8:00 am
And behind Bevan as well surely??

It's Schonert who I thought deserved a shot at tighthead.
It’s a nuance but for me Bev and Si are different looseheads.

Bev is more like Genge, Si more like Marler.
Didn't Bev play the last time we beat the Boks? :yes:
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By RinTin
#64049
I note Tompkins is back and starting for Sarries this weekend 1 week post W/C. What are the rules for returning to club games??

Our boys are of course set for 2 more games I appreciate.
User avatar
By poyntonshark
#64050
Any rules for Prem clubs typically only apply to England players.
Although player welfare is definitely at the forefront of every clubs thinking.
By LJK
#64082
The crazy 3 year old draw for the pools has been criticised by most, and led to last night's fiasco of mismatch semi. At the end the commentator said as much again but also added that the 3 year period was selected 'for commercial reasons'. I for one didn't know what he was referring to, so can anyone advise what the 'commercial' bit meant please.? Thanks
User avatar
By Lord Elpus
#64084
They need to book hotel rooms for the blazers before prices rocket.
By Olyy
#64085
I thought it was because of COVID messing up the 2020/21 international season, but I've not looked into it tbh

The way I always look at it is: if you want to win the world cup and be the best in the world you should be able to beat any side they put in front of you - possibly a bit of a naive point of view, but oh well
I feel a bit for Scotland who would have qualified from two of the groups easily, but not for France/Ireland, whose fans are the one's complaining the loudest at the moment
By DavenportSharky
#64087
Well hats off to England who are actually playing pretty well. Didn’t think I would be saying that tonight but they are. SA need Faf on as Reinach no threat. Scrum holding up well but bomb squad due soon.
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By ale shark
#64089
DavenportSharky wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:57 pm
Well hats off to England who are actually playing pretty well. Didn’t think I would be saying that tonight but they are. SA need Faf on as Reinach no threat. Scrum holding up well but bomb squad due soon.
Yeah, bomb squad killed it. Respect to Cole and Marler. Shame we didn’t have a hooker to bring on.
By Olyy
#64090
Proud of that performance, more heart and fight than I've seen in a long time

Comparative benches were the difference, specifically the forwards
Our replacement props got battered - concerning times at tighthead for England going forward, no idea who comes in over the next few years, Heyes the only young tighthead I can think of getting regular time but he looks a way off (though is only 24 so a baby in prop terms)

Vunipola a wasted selection in the squad let alone the bench,
Knock on led to three points while on as a blood sub, laziness off the lineout contributed to their try and then a knockon to end the game - about as bad of a bench appearance as you could ask for.
Ludlam (or Underhill) would have been a much much better pick



Hopefully we can channel this performance and build on it. Was genuinely the best I think we've looked in a long time.
Seeing if we can get ourselves up for the third place game will be a good indicator


From a Sale POV: Curry top tackler again, only played 60ish but made almost twice as many tackles as next best and missed 0
Manu not noticeable but thought he went around his business efficiently - looked to be involved in the rucks quite a lot as an extra clearer
Shame Ford only got single digit minutes but I can understand Borthwick not wanting to rock the boat by swapping out Farrell as (other than the marching 10 penalty) he was very good
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By Yareet
#64095
Olyy wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:53 pm
Proud of that performance, more heart and fight than I've seen in a long time

Comparative benches were the difference, specifically the forwards
Our replacement props got battered - concerning times at tighthead for England going forward, no idea who comes in over the next few years, Heyes the only young tighthead I can think of getting regular time but he looks a way off (though is only 24 so a baby in prop terms)

Vunipola a wasted selection in the squad let alone the bench,
Knock on led to three points while on as a blood sub, laziness off the lineout contributed to their try and then a knockon to end the game - about as bad of a bench appearance as you could ask for.
Ludlam (or Underhill) would have been a much much better pick



Hopefully we can channel this performance and build on it. Was genuinely the best I think we've looked in a long time.
Seeing if we can get ourselves up for the third place game will be a good indicator


From a Sale POV: Curry top tackler again, only played 60ish but made almost twice as many tackles as next best and missed 0
Manu not noticeable but thought he went around his business efficiently - looked to be involved in the rucks quite a lot as an extra clearer
Shame Ford only got single digit minutes but I can understand Borthwick not wanting to rock the boat by swapping out Farrell as (other than the marching 10 penalty) he was very good
I've had this conversation elsewhere. I've made the assumption that anybody over 30 won't be considered as the future (although they may come in as a stopgap for the next 6N). That rules out the likes of Collier, Sharky, Davison.

I thing the only English 3s with proven Prem experience and not in the current England squad are therefore:

Marcus Street
Ehren Painter
Alex Carey
Paul Hill
Joe Heyes

Somewhat depressing.
By SimonG
#64096
An alternative view:

We lost by one point. Our petulant childish captain gave away ten metres due to his ill-discipline allowing South Africa three points. Well done Owen. Is that the leadership we have been hearing so much about?

I missed the first dozen minutes but we created nothing in the rest of the game and did nothing but niggle and spoil presumably hoping to snatch a win due to South African mistakes. For me it was a dreadful watch and nothing to be proud of.

The likes of Uruguay and Romania came to the RWC to try to play rugby and they can go home proud of themselves unlike our miserable lot who can do nothing but go home punching the air celebrating winning the odd turnover. Maybe if they had set their ambitions a little higher they might have actually achieved something.

One last thought - with all the resources available to us is that really the best we can do? And should we really be celebrating that?
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By Yareet
#64098
SimonG wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:14 pm
An alternative view:

We lost by one point. Our petulant childish captain gave away ten metres due to his ill-discipline allowing South Africa three points. Well done Owen. Is that the leadership we have been hearing so much about?

I missed the first dozen minutes but we created nothing in the rest of the game and did nothing but niggle and spoil presumably hoping to snatch a win due to South African mistakes. For me it was a dreadful watch and nothing to be proud of.

The likes of Uruguay and Romania came to the RWC to try to play rugby and they can go home proud of themselves unlike our miserable lot who can do nothing but go home punching the air celebrating winning the odd turnover. Maybe if they had set their ambitions a little higher they might have actually achieved something.

One last thought - with all the resources available to us is that really the best we can do? And should we really be celebrating that?
Simon, I know you have a visceral hatred of Sarries and seemingly everyone connected with them (does that include Axe?). I fear that may have coloured your opinion of last night’s game.

Before the tournament most of us would’ve taken a 1-point semifinal loss to the world’s #1 team. Especially if we would only be behind for the last 2 minutes.

England played a game plan suited to the conditions and the occasion. They were 2 minutes (and a 50m penalty) from success.

Objectively, that is a marked improvement from where we have been since the Australia tour.

If we’d thrown the ball around and lost by 10, I guarantee there would’ve a similar number of people berating Borthwick for not being more pragmatic.

Suggesting that England’s resources mean we should win every time is also a lazy argument. It ignores all the other factors involved in creating a championship team - from the administration of the game down to the national sporting culture.
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By dinogyro
#64100
It makes me laugh that the Daily Mail is reporting it!

No-one should face racism of any form and God knows I've had enough over my 50+ years. I hope that the SA player will apologise profusely and we don't hear any more of that in rugby.

One of the reasons I love rugby is that I can come to a game and be with civilised people.
By Surbiton_Shark
#64102
Darn - so so so close. I thought we had it.

After some of the utter abysmal showings in the recent years we really turned up. Itoje played like the force of old and was everywhere.

I guess Marler/Cole couldn't play the full 80 - our subs really took us backwards. A hobbling/blooded/half blinded Curry operated better than Billy - god knows what that was about - particularly his ball watching especially in the buildup to their try.

Farrell spoke very nicely after the match. Big surprise for me was Ben Earl - for me - best player in the English squad

Interesting times ahead - number of players won't be around for 4 years - if there is a time for a reset - it's now - including Faz/Ford

From a Sale POV it's interesting - we'll now have the conundrum of bringing George Ford back in........
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By RinTin
#64104
SimonG wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:14 pm
An alternative view:

We lost by one point. Our petulant childish captain gave away ten metres due to his ill-discipline allowing South Africa three points. Well done Owen. Is that the leadership we have been hearing so much about?

I missed the first dozen minutes but we created nothing in the rest of the game and did nothing but niggle and spoil presumably hoping to snatch a win due to South African mistakes. For me it was a dreadful watch and nothing to be proud of.

The likes of Uruguay and Romania came to the RWC to try to play rugby and they can go home proud of themselves unlike our miserable lot who can do nothing but go home punching the air celebrating winning the odd turnover. Maybe if they had set their ambitions a little higher they might have actually achieved something.

One last thought - with all the resources available to us is that really the best we can do? And should we really be celebrating that?
Personally i thought our game plan of aerial bombardment and finding space behind was perfect and we executed it well. Tactics, be that kicking, wide game, forward domination, are key and knockout rugby is just about getting the win by doing whatever it takes.

Yes Farrell gave away 10 metres trying to catch out the ref ('He pushed me sir, you said no pushing'), but he kicked incredibly well, slotted a 46m drop goal, defended well. led with absolute conviction and almost led that team to a win vs world number 1's.

You mentioned his childish behaviour, yet ignore the other other positives he brought to the team. It's a bit like ignoring the 6 or 7 great catches Steward made at the back and only highlighting the one drop he made.

Would your opinion be different if we had won? To almost beat the best in the world having been written off at every step (rightly so at times) is a phenomenal achievement. Had the scrum not completely imploded we would have won it is that simple.

Resource wise - completely agree with you. No back up hooker, no back up props, a back up 8 who shouldn't even be in a prem squad let alone at a world cup.
User avatar
By poyntonshark
#64106
dinogyro wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:57 pm
It makes me laugh that the Daily Mail is reporting it!

No-one should face racism of any form and God knows I've had enough over my 50+ years. I hope that the SA player will apologise profusely and we don't hear any more of that in rugby.

One of the reasons I love rugby is that I can come to a game and be with civilised people.
If the allegations are proven to be true, do you think an apology will suffice? If the roles had been reversed Tom would already have been banned for life.

Fans of most countries are happy to put the boot in when their team is performing badly, but I don't know of another that continues with the boot when their country does well.
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By SimonG
#64112
Yareet wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:32 pm
SimonG wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:14 pm
An alternative view:

We lost by one point. Our petulant childish captain gave away ten metres due to his ill-discipline allowing South Africa three points. Well done Owen. Is that the leadership we have been hearing so much about?

I missed the first dozen minutes but we created nothing in the rest of the game and did nothing but niggle and spoil presumably hoping to snatch a win due to South African mistakes. For me it was a dreadful watch and nothing to be proud of.

The likes of Uruguay and Romania came to the RWC to try to play rugby and they can go home proud of themselves unlike our miserable lot who can do nothing but go home punching the air celebrating winning the odd turnover. Maybe if they had set their ambitions a little higher they might have actually achieved something.

One last thought - with all the resources available to us is that really the best we can do? And should we really be celebrating that?
Simon, I know you have a visceral hatred of Sarries and seemingly everyone connected with them (does that include Axe?). I fear that may have coloured your opinion of last night’s game.

Before the tournament most of us would’ve taken a 1-point semifinal loss to the world’s #1 team. Especially if we would only be behind for the last 2 minutes.

England played a game plan suited to the conditions and the occasion. They were 2 minutes (and a 50m penalty) from success.

Objectively, that is a marked improvement from where we have been since the Australia tour.

If we’d thrown the ball around and lost by 10, I guarantee there would’ve a similar number of people berating Borthwick for not being more pragmatic.

Suggesting that England’s resources mean we should win every time is also a lazy argument. It ignores all the other factors involved in creating a championship team - from the administration of the game down to the national sporting culture.
Suggesting that I said that England’s resources mean we should win every time is not only a lazy argument it is also blatantly untrue and undermines the rest of your post. You may be happy watching that dross I am not.

We are both entitled to our opinions but please don't suggest I have said things I haven't in order to further your argument. You are better than that.
By SimonG
#64113
RinTin wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:19 am
SimonG wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:14 pm
An alternative view:

We lost by one point. Our petulant childish captain gave away ten metres due to his ill-discipline allowing South Africa three points. Well done Owen. Is that the leadership we have been hearing so much about?

I missed the first dozen minutes but we created nothing in the rest of the game and did nothing but niggle and spoil presumably hoping to snatch a win due to South African mistakes. For me it was a dreadful watch and nothing to be proud of.

The likes of Uruguay and Romania came to the RWC to try to play rugby and they can go home proud of themselves unlike our miserable lot who can do nothing but go home punching the air celebrating winning the odd turnover. Maybe if they had set their ambitions a little higher they might have actually achieved something.

One last thought - with all the resources available to us is that really the best we can do? And should we really be celebrating that?
Personally i thought our game plan of aerial bombardment and finding space behind was perfect and we executed it well. Tactics, be that kicking, wide game, forward domination, are key and knockout rugby is just about getting the win by doing whatever it takes.

Yes Farrell gave away 10 metres trying to catch out the ref ('He pushed me sir, you said no pushing'), but he kicked incredibly well, slotted a 46m drop goal, defended well. led with absolute conviction and almost led that team to a win vs world number 1's.

You mentioned his childish behaviour, yet ignore the other other positives he brought to the team. It's a bit like ignoring the 6 or 7 great catches Steward made at the back and only highlighting the one drop he made.

Would your opinion be different if we had won? To almost beat the best in the world having been written off at every step (rightly so at times) is a phenomenal achievement. Had the scrum not completely imploded we would have won it is that simple.

Resource wise - completely agree with you. No back up hooker, no back up props, a back up 8 who shouldn't even be in a prem squad let alone at a world cup.
Would my opinion be different if we had won? No it wouldn't. I don't want to watch dross like that and I think we should be better than going into games with such a negative attitude as we have for ages now.

I accept we couldn't be expected to suddenly play open exciting rugby in the semi-final and win but I'd rather we tried and lost playing with some ambition rather than play as we did and now hear people saying that Saturday's performance gives us hope for the future, A future watching that boring rubbish? Not for me thanks.

Just my opinion of course.
User avatar
By Lord Elpus
#64114
The problem for England - aside from the mega effup that is the RFU - is the number of English players who qualify for other countries through parentage or grandparents usually. Both "Scottish" 9's are English, Hamish Watson is English, Chris Harris, Nick Tompkins, Tomas Francis , Will Rowlands, Paolo Odogwu and many more are English.

It's about time the Grandparents' place of birth was removed from qualification. Greatgrandparents' actions shouldn't have any bearing on national qualification.
By RinTin
#64116
SimonG wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:36 pm
RinTin wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:19 am
SimonG wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:14 pm
An alternative view:

We lost by one point. Our petulant childish captain gave away ten metres due to his ill-discipline allowing South Africa three points. Well done Owen. Is that the leadership we have been hearing so much about?

I missed the first dozen minutes but we created nothing in the rest of the game and did nothing but niggle and spoil presumably hoping to snatch a win due to South African mistakes. For me it was a dreadful watch and nothing to be proud of.

The likes of Uruguay and Romania came to the RWC to try to play rugby and they can go home proud of themselves unlike our miserable lot who can do nothing but go home punching the air celebrating winning the odd turnover. Maybe if they had set their ambitions a little higher they might have actually achieved something.

One last thought - with all the resources available to us is that really the best we can do? And should we really be celebrating that?
Personally i thought our game plan of aerial bombardment and finding space behind was perfect and we executed it well. Tactics, be that kicking, wide game, forward domination, are key and knockout rugby is just about getting the win by doing whatever it takes.

Yes Farrell gave away 10 metres trying to catch out the ref ('He pushed me sir, you said no pushing'), but he kicked incredibly well, slotted a 46m drop goal, defended well. led with absolute conviction and almost led that team to a win vs world number 1's.

You mentioned his childish behaviour, yet ignore the other other positives he brought to the team. It's a bit like ignoring the 6 or 7 great catches Steward made at the back and only highlighting the one drop he made.

Would your opinion be different if we had won? To almost beat the best in the world having been written off at every step (rightly so at times) is a phenomenal achievement. Had the scrum not completely imploded we would have won it is that simple.

Resource wise - completely agree with you. No back up hooker, no back up props, a back up 8 who shouldn't even be in a prem squad let alone at a world cup.
Would my opinion be different if we had won? No it wouldn't. I don't want to watch dross like that and I think we should be better than going into games with such a negative attitude as we have for ages now.

I accept we couldn't be expected to suddenly play open exciting rugby in the semi-final and win but I'd rather we tried and lost playing with some ambition rather than play as we did and now hear people saying that Saturday's performance gives us hope for the future, A future watching that boring rubbish? Not for me thanks.

Just my opinion of course.
Understood.

2003 we won playing this style of rugby, 2007 we made the final playing the same way again. 2003 we scored 2 tries in QF SF and Final combined. In fact, in this tournament we scored more tries than in 2007 and 2015, and almost matched our try hauls from 2011 and 2019.

We won ugly in 2003. To me it is still the greatest moment in English rugby history regardless of how it was done. Had England won ugly on Saturday and made the final I would still hold it in as high regard as if both sides scored countless tries.

I believe Steve Borthwick very nearly masterminded one of the greatest wins in our history given the odds stacked against us.
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By Yareet
#64120
SimonG wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:26 pm
Yareet wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:32 pm
SimonG wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:14 pm
An alternative view:

We lost by one point. Our petulant childish captain gave away ten metres due to his ill-discipline allowing South Africa three points. Well done Owen. Is that the leadership we have been hearing so much about?

I missed the first dozen minutes but we created nothing in the rest of the game and did nothing but niggle and spoil presumably hoping to snatch a win due to South African mistakes. For me it was a dreadful watch and nothing to be proud of.

The likes of Uruguay and Romania came to the RWC to try to play rugby and they can go home proud of themselves unlike our miserable lot who can do nothing but go home punching the air celebrating winning the odd turnover. Maybe if they had set their ambitions a little higher they might have actually achieved something.

One last thought - with all the resources available to us is that really the best we can do? And should we really be celebrating that?
Simon, I know you have a visceral hatred of Sarries and seemingly everyone connected with them (does that include Axe?). I fear that may have coloured your opinion of last night’s game.

Before the tournament most of us would’ve taken a 1-point semifinal loss to the world’s #1 team. Especially if we would only be behind for the last 2 minutes.

England played a game plan suited to the conditions and the occasion. They were 2 minutes (and a 50m penalty) from success.

Objectively, that is a marked improvement from where we have been since the Australia tour.

If we’d thrown the ball around and lost by 10, I guarantee there would’ve a similar number of people berating Borthwick for not being more pragmatic.

Suggesting that England’s resources mean we should win every time is also a lazy argument. It ignores all the other factors involved in creating a championship team - from the administration of the game down to the national sporting culture.
Suggesting that I said that England’s resources mean we should win every time is not only a lazy argument it is also blatantly untrue and undermines the rest of your post. You may be happy watching that dross I am not.

We are both entitled to our opinions but please don't suggest I have said things I haven't in order to further your argument. You are better than that.
Apologies, you’re right that I wrongly assumed your meaning about our resources.

So I’ll ask instead.

Given our resources, what would an acceptable World Cup have been in your opinion?
By dinogyro
#64121
poyntonshark wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:35 am
dinogyro wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:57 pm
It makes me laugh that the Daily Mail is reporting it!

No-one should face racism of any form and God knows I've had enough over my 50+ years. I hope that the SA player will apologise profusely and we don't hear any more of that in rugby.

One of the reasons I love rugby is that I can come to a game and be with civilised people.
If the allegations are proven to be true, do you think an apology will suffice? If the roles had been reversed Tom would already have been banned for life.

Fans of most countries are happy to put the boot in when their team is performing badly, but I don't know of another that continues with the boot when their country does well.
You're quite right, on reflection, an apology is not enough. There has to be some 'official' action.
User avatar
By Flumpty
#64123
Mitigation perhaps ?!??!?!!?!

I have seen it suggested that he'd called wit cant, which would be Afrikaans for "white side", because the ball had come out on Englands side.
Rather than him calling TC a white c**t.
By SimonG
#64124
Yareet wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:29 pm
SimonG wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:26 pm
Yareet wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:32 pm


Simon, I know you have a visceral hatred of Sarries and seemingly everyone connected with them (does that include Axe?). I fear that may have coloured your opinion of last night’s game.

Before the tournament most of us would’ve taken a 1-point semifinal loss to the world’s #1 team. Especially if we would only be behind for the last 2 minutes.

England played a game plan suited to the conditions and the occasion. They were 2 minutes (and a 50m penalty) from success.

Objectively, that is a marked improvement from where we have been since the Australia tour.

If we’d thrown the ball around and lost by 10, I guarantee there would’ve a similar number of people berating Borthwick for not being more pragmatic.

Suggesting that England’s resources mean we should win every time is also a lazy argument. It ignores all the other factors involved in creating a championship team - from the administration of the game down to the national sporting culture.
Suggesting that I said that England’s resources mean we should win every time is not only a lazy argument it is also blatantly untrue and undermines the rest of your post. You may be happy watching that dross I am not.

We are both entitled to our opinions but please don't suggest I have said things I haven't in order to further your argument. You are better than that.
Apologies, you’re right that I wrongly assumed your meaning about our resources.

So I’ll ask instead.

Given our resources, what would an acceptable World Cup have been in your opinion?
Accepted.

Given the way we were playing leading up to the competition an acceptable World Cup for me would have be one where we learned to have confidence in ourselves and started playing to try to make things happen and not just to stifle the opposition. if we had done that then where we exited the competition would have been irrelevant to me. We would have at least started the journey to do what the best sides in the world do.

Making the semi-finals via a very easy group playing as we did means we haven't progressed at all in my opinion and does little for the game in this country. Kids will look at France and New Zealand and be inspired to play like them. How many kids will be inspired to play like England?
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By Yareet
#64125
SimonG wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:30 pm
Yareet wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:29 pm
SimonG wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:26 pm


Suggesting that I said that England’s resources mean we should win every time is not only a lazy argument it is also blatantly untrue and undermines the rest of your post. You may be happy watching that dross I am not.

We are both entitled to our opinions but please don't suggest I have said things I haven't in order to further your argument. You are better than that.
Apologies, you’re right that I wrongly assumed your meaning about our resources.

So I’ll ask instead.

Given our resources, what would an acceptable World Cup have been in your opinion?
Accepted.

Given the way we were playing leading up to the competition an acceptable World Cup for me would have be one where we learned to have confidence in ourselves and started playing to try to make things happen and not just to stifle the opposition. if we had done that then where we exited the competition would have been irrelevant to me. We would have at least started the journey to do what the best sides in the world do.

Making the semi-finals via a very easy group playing as we did means we haven't progressed at all in my opinion and does little for the game in this country. Kids will look at France and New Zealand and be inspired to play like them. How many kids will be inspired to play like England?
For what it’s worth, the U9s I coach don’t really care how the game is played. They do know who was in a semifinal and who wasn’t but they’re not really discussing the merits of a fast-paced, offloading game v a pragmatic kick fest.

Likewise, (and this is only personal experience) I grew up watching rugby in the 90s. I was desperate to be the next Mickey Skinner and couldn’t care less that England weren’t playing like France - mainly because we were beating the French.

So I’d argue that kids are more inspired by success than they are style of play.

Which also ties in with a fundamental contradiction of sport. As fans, we are paying to be entertained. If the product isn't something we want to watch (as it seems to be your case with the current England setup), we vote with our feet.

But the players and management are incentivised to win. There are no style points in rugby - but there are bonuses for winning. The aim must be to ensure that you score more points than the oppo. Your preference seems to be that England do so by aiming to score (forgive me if I've misunderstood) but I can understand what a new coaching team on a wet night in a knockout game will plump for restricting the oppo from scoring instead.

We also played a key pool game with only 14 men. Again I can understand why we opted for pragmatism.
Last edited by Yareet on Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Olyy
#64126
Flumpty wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:10 pm
Mitigation perhaps ?!??!?!!?!

I have seen it suggested that he'd called wit cant, which would be Afrikaans for "white side", because the ball had come out on Englands side.
Rather than him calling TC a white c**t.
This seems most likely to me - talking to South Africans the C word apparently isn't a common insult in South Africa at all (they were happy to list many other words he could've called him! :mrgreen: ) so it'd be an odd one for Bongi to use
By Surbiton_Shark
#64127
Olyy wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:00 pm
Flumpty wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:10 pm
Mitigation perhaps ?!??!?!!?!

I have seen it suggested that he'd called wit cant, which would be Afrikaans for "white side", because the ball had come out on Englands side.
Rather than him calling TC a white c**t.
This seems most likely to me - talking to South Africans the C word apparently isn't a common insult in South Africa at all (they were happy to list many other words he could've called him! :mrgreen: ) so it'd be an odd one for Bongi to use
Consistent with feedback from all the South African's I work with...'white side'......
By Streatham Shark
#64130
We absolutely did not win in 2003 playing that style of rugby. Maybe in the semi but otherwise it was damn near perfect and had been for the past four years. I don't know where this ludicrous narrative that this is all England can do comes from, our domestic game is brilliant, it seems to be that when you put it in the hands of international coaches they determine it's deficient.

I'm with Simon on this. Saturday was enthralling and thrilling and heartbreaking, but ultimately it was proof that a rigid mindset is crippling the game at the highest level for England. Farrell is not the answer, he's not his dad, his lack of composure penalises us massively and, whisper it, he's not actually that good if he's not surrounded by better players. Borthwick made horrific selection choices at the start of the campaign, most notably Vunipola but also, I'm sorry to say, Manu. Only steward should survive from the back three.

Saturday night for me felt like 95, a changing of the guard. The worry is that Borthwick won't see it like that and stick with the game plan that nearly got us into a world cup final. I hope I'm wrong.
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By RinTin
#64133
Streatham Shark wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 5:02 pm
We absolutely did not win in 2003 playing that style of rugby. Maybe in the semi but otherwise it was damn near perfect and had been for the past four years. I don't know where this ludicrous narrative that this is all England can do comes from, our domestic game is brilliant, it seems to be that when you put it in the hands of international coaches they determine it's deficient.

I'm with Simon on this. Saturday was enthralling and thrilling and heartbreaking, but ultimately it was proof that a rigid mindset is crippling the game at the highest level for England. Farrell is not the answer, he's not his dad, his lack of composure penalises us massively and, whisper it, he's not actually that good if he's not surrounded by better players. Borthwick made horrific selection choices at the start of the campaign, most notably Vunipola but also, I'm sorry to say, Manu. Only steward should survive from the back three.

Saturday night for me felt like 95, a changing of the guard. The worry is that Borthwick won't see it like that and stick with the game plan that nearly got us into a world cup final. I hope I'm wrong.
2003 we won ugly. We played 4 hard games all tournament and scored 3 tries - Greenwood vs SA in the group, Greenwood vs Wales in the QF, nothing vs France in semi and Robinson in the final. 82 points from the boot of Jonny. Clive Woodward even said they won it ugly in 2003. Wins a win though with 'perfect' being subjective based on the opposition. Had our scrum held and we won on Saturday I would almost argue it was a perfect tactical win.

Saturday night was thrilling and enthralling, but Simon didn't say that.

I am certainly with you on the upcoming player clearout. I'm excited for the new crowd coming to the fore int he 6 nations (hopefully).
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By Lord Elpus
#64134
"Wyt kant" in Afrikaans sounds nothing like "White c***". Wyt is pronounced like Vit in phonetic English . Van der Merwe ootp is pronounced like Fun der Mairver in English phonetics.

Refusing to shake hands after the game shows how boorish he is.
By ale shark
#64135
RinTin wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 1:07 pm

I believe Steve Borthwick very nearly masterminded one of the greatest wins in our history given the odds stacked against us.

I think that’s a bit generous, it was a game plan that might have worked one in ten attempts and the conditions were in our favour. We didn’t win.

In a low scoring game of limited chances it was obvious (to me anyway) that SA would take whatever limited chances they got and England were never likely to score a 5-7 pointer.

If England try and play that way in every 6N match then they’ll finish in the bottom half again.
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