[45jumper]

Long post incoming - it's been a quiet day at work
I was going to post this in the transfer rumour thread but thought I rambled for so long it may gain more attention on it's own.
Basically, what do posters think about where we are as a club?
I'm 100% behind Axe but apart from getting rid of Langley (I don't count Forshaw as he left to coach an international side) he hasn't made any coaching changes in 4 years. We've played the same way in all this time and I think we look a bit stale. I'm getting slightly tired of the continued "we're Northern and hard to play against" schtick: we need to aspire to more than being a blunt instrument with a great defence. The lack of bonus points is a killer. Quins are five points ahead of us despite having won a game less!
At the risk of sounding like a broken record Deacon has been here nearly ten years and our attack has been consistently poor for a long time - we may score tries when we win the physical battle but there's never a Plan B, our strike moves are practically non-existent and we seem to have no idea what to do when we rack up the phases. We need a change here.
On the playing front....
I think we're fine at prop and hooker. Second row needs major investment. Andrews is a good squad man but shouldn't be starting for a team looking to win the title. Roets has been a bust, Hill is off to France, Beaumont may retire. Bamber is a year older but Burrow is too young to be a regular starter. We need at least two, probably three high-class locks. If both Du Preezs go, we need at least one carrier, maybe even two with Tom Curry's injury record.
Scrum Half is probably fine but Quirke's injury record is shocking and Warr's continual poor form this season is a major concern. Would like to see Nye Thomas play more and Hanson / Wootton being selected for their U20s shows they have talent. Fly Half is fine - I think a better backs coach would get more out of Curtis and Ollie Davies seems a huge prospect for the future.
Our centres also concern me - Waisea is an example of extremely poor recruitment: why on earth did we sign a player like him when we never play a runner at 13?! Sam Bedlow has been underwhelming but as an academy graduate is good for the salary cap. Luke James looks good at 12, Ma'asi-White is a prospect and RDP is a mainstay at 13. Recruitment depends on the attacking approach going forward. We're currently wedded to the 'distributor at 13' approach but that may change along with the coach. Have to wait and see here. The wings are decent - if TOF is out of contract I'd probably retain him as we have more pressing needs elsewhere - even if I do have concerns about his all-round play. Wills is yet to convince but Ene looks interesting. Full-back is also fine. Luke James can cover but Carpenter seems very durable. Could also be a way to give Ollie Davies gametime. I'd keep Addison for another year as his versatility is invaluable.

Interested to hear others' thoughts!

[RinTin]

I will begin with a positive observation - I believe we use our academy well and really look to promote from within. Big fan of this approach and it is yielding fruit looking at the guys getting regular minutes in our 23.

Given the funds at the disposal of our owner I would like a lot of focus financially to be on matters away from the field. Facilities, infrastructure, coaches etc.

[SSR]

As you say, there are three strands to upgrade.
The Team, the Coaching Staff and the Ground.
Obviously the Staff control the direction of the team and recruitment required.
I don't think we have any control over that other than revenue if we continue to be
average or less and the crowds dwindle.
The owners basically control everything in the amount of money available to improve the
playing environment and the top level management structure.
Does Axe do what he can with the players/coaches we have or change the recruitment to give us a different outlook and style?
Glos seem to be going down the changed surface and style route . Bath going down the
changed management and buying big path.
I don't think we have much option other than recruit to a different style but is Axe the
person to do it?

[Halifaxshark]

Great conversation.

I do agree the coaching staff needs freshening up, a new attack coach possibly. Owning our own stadium would be the best outcome however.

The recruitment has not worked overall. Woodward & Veainu signings didn’t work, feels like Roets was a similar gamble that’s not worked. It also feels like we never saw Waisea play before we signed him, he did everything we didn’t and vice-versa. J Hill, DDP, JLDP and LCD will be in France next season, or the one after and Beaumont, Schnoert, Addison, McIntyre, Harrison, Taylor, TOF and Ford have not got long left.

The positives however are our academy and getting 9 in the England under 20s. Going forward, this is what we have to play with;

15 - Carpenter & O.Davies
14 - Roebuck, Ene & Toby Wilson
13 - RDP
12 - RMW, L James & S Bedlow
11 - Reed & Wills
10 - Curtis & Wardle
9 - Warr, Quirke, Thomas, Wooton, Hanson
1 - AOF, Rodd, Onasanya, McEachran
2 - McElroy, Caine, Longstaff, Thompson, Jibula
3 - Bell, Raymont, Harper, WGJ
4 - Roets, Bamber
5 - Andrews, Groves, Burrow
6 - Van Rhyn, T Curry, Gilmore
7 - Woodman, B Curry, Dugdale, Kelly
8 - Riley, Birch

It does feel like 1 scrum half and 1 hooker would leave out of that above. Five feels too many. Probably Warr and MCElory maybe?

If some of our big earners leave and there’s some money to play with, I think we should go for;

* 2 top level locks, not locks who can’t get into rivals teams, I mean the cream of the crop locks.
* 1 centre who could play both 12/13, someone like Dan Kelly would have been perfect
* 1 number 8, someone like Callum Chick would be a great replacement for the Du Preez.

[Oh Danny Boy]

Long post incoming - it's been a quiet day at work
I was going to post this in the transfer rumour thread but thought I rambled for so long it may gain more attention on it's own.
Basically, what do posters think about where we are as a club?
I'm 100% behind Axe but apart from getting rid of Langley (I don't count Forshaw as he left to coach an international side) he hasn't made any coaching changes in 4 years. We've played the same way in all this time and I think we look a bit stale. I'm getting slightly tired of the continued "we're Northern and hard to play against" schtick: we need to aspire to more than being a blunt instrument with a great defence. The lack of bonus points is a killer. Quins are five points ahead of us despite having won a game less!
At the risk of sounding like a broken record Deacon has been here nearly ten years and our attack has been consistently poor for a long time - we may score tries when we win the physical battle but there's never a Plan B, our strike moves are practically non-existent and we seem to have no idea what to do when we rack up the phases. We need a change here.
On the playing front....
I think we're fine at prop and hooker. Second row needs major investment. Andrews is a good squad man but shouldn't be starting for a team looking to win the title. Roets has been a bust, Hill is off to France, Beaumont may retire. Bamber is a year older but Burrow is too young to be a regular starter. We need at least two, probably three high-class locks. If both Du Preezs go, we need at least one carrier, maybe even two with Tom Curry's injury record.
Scrum Half is probably fine but Quirke's injury record is shocking and Warr's continual poor form this season is a major concern. Would like to see Nye Thomas play more and Hanson / Wootton being selected for their U20s shows they have talent. Fly Half is fine - I think a better backs coach would get more out of Curtis and Ollie Davies seems a huge prospect for the future.
Our centres also concern me - Waisea is an example of extremely poor recruitment: why on earth did we sign a player like him when we never play a runner at 13?! Sam Bedlow has been underwhelming but as an academy graduate is good for the salary cap. Luke James looks good at 12, Ma'asi-White is a prospect and RDP is a mainstay at 13. Recruitment depends on the attacking approach going forward. We're currently wedded to the 'distributor at 13' approach but that may change along with the coach. Have to wait and see here. The wings are decent - if TOF is out of contract I'd probably retain him as we have more pressing needs elsewhere - even if I do have concerns about his all-round play. Wills is yet to convince but Ene looks interesting. Full-back is also fine. Luke James can cover but Carpenter seems very durable. Could also be a way to give Ollie Davies gametime. I'd keep Addison for another year as his versatility is invaluable.
Interested to hear others' thoughts!

It's a shame there's no excellent button.
Stadium - out of our hands, it's now down to Salford Council to make it work and grow the numbers through an improved fans experience

Academy to Senior Player pathway is working well, and I hope they put more effort and resources into improvements where possible.

Recruitment - (Sarcasm mode on) There have been some gems of late. They should stop thinking of the immediate and think longer. For seasoned arrivals, they should be players and mentors in equal measure to deliver real value for their time here. We have had some fantastic signings for up and coming lads (Fordjour etc). For those still in their purple patch, do not gamble on injuries coming good. I'll take 2 fit, known quantities over 1 big name who is on the mend.

Coaches: If there was an internet award for distrust and dislike, I would be a gold medalist. When it comes to Deacon, he sums up perfectly how Sale can hold ourselves back.

[Evo]

Senior recruitment is often a resounding success or egg on face, rarely anything other......for Jason Woodward, does anyone remember Cameron Shepherd? Another wildcard that proved value for money until Mike Haley came along....
You have to assume Roets was was a punt - do we know the economics? , given Andrews has turned out as a solid conversion into the squad.
Van Rhyn, Ford have been a very solid recruits. LCD!! Si Mc...
RMW and Asher, excellent academy recruits post Wasps/LI .....
Not so sure recruitment has been such an issue...our Fijian import clearly didn't work out which has rather exemplified the topic....
Will be interesting to see what next season's intake offers.....

[poyntonshark]

60% success rate is about the norm in professional sports recruitment. I haven't done the maths, but we can't be far off that. The main issue is when a high profile like Naya flops so completely.

I don't see much to disagree with in any of the above posts violently. Praise to @45jumper for getting it going. Concerning rumours, I had heard that Beaumont was planning on staying and that only one DuPreez was leaving.
I agree that we will need to strengthen at lock, I don't see us getting 2 superstars there, but at least 1 top quality is needed, I think. Centre remains our biggest problem, though RMW seems to be progressing. I agree that Will Addison is a good player to have around the squad, but he seems to be a shadow of his former self. Again, at least 1 high-quality creative is required. I doubt we will change much at scrum half. It's at times like this I wish I was more religious/spiritual and could at least make myself believe that praying for Raffi to avoid further injury could do any good. Similarly, at fly half, little to change. Curtis may look elsewhere, but I have expected that for at least the past 2 years. Davies should start to get opportunities. Back 3 probably won't change either, which I guess is OK, but we do need to add much more pace to our backs (not just in back 3, obviously). We seem pretty well stocked at prop, but if Schonert doesn't make it back, we may look for a replacement, even if just for experience's sake. I agree that we may have a senior hooker too many, of those it would be McElroy to go I think. A shame, as I think he has done quite well, but hasn't shown anything special above and beyond the others. Not sure about back row if only 1 DupPreez is going. Recruiting well at lock should enable Van Rhyn to move back to 6; Tom will obviously continue to be managed carefully. I forgot to mention in my rumours bit that it is possible they Birch is looking to leave, which makes sense. To be fair, he hasn't been getting the kind of game time that he should want. A strong carrying 8 would be a good addition.

I certainly believe that our game plan is dated. We can still make it work with our best 23 available, but if we make a few changes, we struggle. So, a change in approach is required, which probably means a couple of coaching changes.

[ledzepsfr]

Re: Birch, can't see why he isn't in the 23 each game. Not done much wrong IMO. Quite the reverse when played.

[Clutch]

In the 23?! Ahead of who? Tom Curry!!

He's a very good back up but he is back up for a reason. Incredibly competitive area at Sale. Wouldn't be against him moving up assuming JL leaves, and we decide not to recruit.

As a long time defender of Deacon, I cannot justify any longer. His time has to be up. A 5 min watch of all other prem teams attack should be enough to demonstrate that. I still don't know why his stock his dropped so much, from being best attack coach in the prem and a possibly England coach to where he is now. I've heard suggestions from Ford that the team as a whole is poor at reacting in game in making changes / spotting opportunities and weaknesses to exploit. All analysis is after the fact.

Recruitment wise 2 second rows are a must. 1 top class, and one other, ability depending on funds. Need to develop Burrow too. He's a best prospect currently.

If JL goes he will need replacing but as a wider point we need to consider that we have probably overspent in the forwards.

I say his most years but as ever a game changing class 3/4 is a must, but who would go based on how we play. I think our style has held back our 3/4 recruitment (opposite true for the pack)

Really hope Rafi gets a contract and stays fit (ish). We have to also wake up and stop pretending Warr is the answer to anything. Aside from Chiefs 1st win, don't think you get many league titles with a mediocre 9. Not that I'm suggesting Warr is mediocre! He sums up the issue with our attack. Not that it his fault, but his selection tells us exactly how we want to play. If we were Quins or Saints with the same squad he wouldn't be in the 23.

[DavenportSharky]

Changing things mid game is not helped by Sanderson being at pitch side. I’ve said it before and I say it again, there is a reason why every other coach sits high up and that is spotting opportunities and weaknesses that can be addressed.
Birch is a great trier but he is slightly small for second row where he has played and never going to displace DDP at 8. I can’t see anyone taking him bar the Falcons. The problem is with only 9 other teams, vacancies are much less and there are less games to be picked in. Perhaps for him a bird in the hand…. The lack of Jets games means he doesn’t play much competitive rugby. His dad has a stained glass business in Stockport so he has ties to stay here. I think Dugdale moving would be a much bigger loss.
You need to refer Gus to Donald Trump, Clutch. He fancies himself at stopping Wars.

[SSR]

It is obvious from the table that to win in the prem, you need two things, to get losing bonus
points and to score tries ( lots of them ).
We can get a solid forward performance from the players we currently have, but we are
a long way from scoring the number of tries we need to get near the top of the table.
We need to get an edge in the backs somehow.
We are going to lose some important forwards shortly, but we have some decent youngsters
coming through. We need some outstanding backs to give a good attack coach a chance to
turn us into a team people want to watch. Can we afford them though?

[Clutch]

That’s not entirely true though. We struggled last season in that regard and when we finished 2nd we were hardly scoring tries for fun.

[poyntonshark]

I don't disagree that we need creativity and pace in our backs, but if we could put our current first XV out every league game (possibly our first 23), then we would be capable of winning the whole thing. We still have a chance of doing that this season, even with the associated disasters.

[SSR]

How many of our first 23 will be available for next season on a regular basis?
I am looking towards next season and what we could buy to improve things if
we have the money. Bums on seats need to be improved, so our style and attractiveness
needs to improve ( as does the reliance on Fri night matches ).

[RinTin]

How many of our first 23 will be available for next season on a regular basis?
I am looking towards next season and what we could buy to improve things if
we have the money. Bums on seats need to be improved, so our style and attractiveness
needs to improve ( as does the reliance on Fri night matches ).

As it stands now it's all of them... no one is confirmed to be going anywhere save for Jonny Hill.

[SSR]

It was the "on a regular basis" bit that concerns me. It is not like we field a full first XV during
any season at the moments. Injuries and call ups hit us hard.

[Yareet]

How many of our first 23 will be available for next season on a regular basis?
I am looking towards next season and what we could buy to improve things if
we have the money. Bums on seats need to be improved, so our style and attractiveness
needs to improve ( as does the reliance on Fri night matches ).

As it stands now it's all of them... no one is confirmed to be going anywhere save for Jonny Hill.

As the club confirmed Jonny is off?

[RinTin]

That's a good point re Hill.... I retract my comment. As it stands, we have our entire first choice 23 still with us for next year.

Injuries can't be predicted, except maybe for Raff