[The Back Row]

Pleasure to watch. Toulouse amazing. But to be on their 22 three times in the first half hour and box kicked three is a tactical decision. To put out the kids is a choice.

Every one of those 77 points is on Sanderson’s shoulders.

Go. Go now. Take Warr with you. Don’t come back.

[Sumisu]

I'm going out on a limb, but maybe this might be by design. Toulouse was definitely getting a win here - and the ref was particularly generous especially at the breakdown. Toulouse get through, inevitable, why show ALL our cards now, especially if we have to play them again later. We are already guaranteed through, we've gained by letting our players get some game time against some serious talent, they'll definitely grow from this... If I was in Als shoes, I might have done the same.

God it was painful to watch though... but I'm keeping my eye on the bigger picture, hoping there's a 'master plan' in the pipeline

[Stoke Shark]

Pleasure to watch. Toulouse amazing. But to be on their 22 three times in the first half hour and box kicked three is a tactical decision. To put out the kids is a choice.

Every one of those 77 points is on Sanderson’s shoulders.

Go. Go now. Take Warr with you. Don’t come back.

Couldn’t agree more. We have a WhatsApp group of 25 or so of us, go most games home and away - we were the ones in Clermont with the Ernie masks. For a while the consensus has been that Sanderson talks a good game but this season it’s been dire. And I was screaming at the tv at Warr box kicking on their 22.

So we go into next season with a Championship level 9 unless we act quickly.
Enough is enough

[Bucks1861]

Just so predictably and boring.

Do you really think that these comments are going to get a billionaire to sack his hand picked coach?

Grow up, or better still, go away.

[The Back Row]

Rather than be a keyboard warrior, try creating a coherent argument.

[dinogyro]

The betting odds were massive against us winning. Even I, as an uninformed spectator, had a pretty good idea we would lose. Probably with the best team we could muster.

There were two choices, put out the best team we could, risk injuries and if we pulled off a win, get a home game. Or, rest most of our best and blood some new(ish) players. What would you have done people? We just don't have the squad depth (because of injury mostly) to compete on both fronts.

Squad depth could be blamed on Alex, that's got to be a consideration, but the man who pays the bills seems happy with the trajectory. Don't forget they have access to ALL the data. We have access to very little.

We did see some good performances and it was quite possibly a useful exercise in the end.

[RinTin]

Full strength Bristol comfortably dispatched on their own patch by Bordeaux.

Full strength Sarries demolished away to Glasgow.

Should those coaches go? Should McCall call it a day due to their mediocre season and today’s loss? No, he has credit based on how they done over the last few seasons (despite not winning the prem). Axe has the same from me for this season.

We’re third in the group. I’m good with this. As, it appears, are our owners.

EDIT - Quins away for the next round. Very happy.

[HerefordShark]

The moron must go

Don't let the door hit you on the way out then

[FarnhamShark]

This sort of language makes any reasoned discussion impossible, so I won't bother. Pity, because it's a topic worth discussing, but not with terms like "moron". Far too offensive.

[Major Bloodnok]

Anybody using that sort of language about anybody in future will earn themselves an instant ban.

First and only warning.

[The Back Row]

Given you have removed the term, feel free to discuss the point.

[Yareet]

FWIW, this is my take on the situation. It’s not one I expect everyone to agree with not least as it is 100% pragmatic.

With everyone fit and at a neutral territory in a cup final, I have no doubt that we could give Toulouse a game.

But none of those factors were in play.

We had 9 of our first choice 23 injured including 2 of the front row, 2 of the back row (and the sub), both wingers and both 15s.

As a comparison, Toulouse were able to call on the French starting hooker with the French reserve hooker on the bench.

It was at Toulouse and they had everything to lose if they didn’t win. Emotionally, it would be hard to match them not even including the home crowd acting as the 16th man.

In that scenario, I think realistically the best we could’ve hoped for was a try BP.

But to achieve that, we probably needed to play the best fit 23 we had available. Which means playing Tom C, Fordy, Rob, etc. in the hope that there are enough of those 1st choice players on the pitch to achieve 4 tries.

It might have worked but the outcome would IMO have been the same - a third place finish. Before the game (if my maths is right) Toulouse had a points difference of +24; ours was +32. Assuming they were getting 4 tries, they were getting to 12 league points. We therefore would’ve needed to stay within 4 points of them to get to 12 league points and have a better PD. A 5-point loss would’ve looked amazing but would’ve left us in third (+29 v +27).

But I’m just not sure how viable that was given the personnel we had available.

And we would’ve risked further injuries to our key players. If we’d played Ford or Rob or Tom in what was (IMO) a very high risk, low reward game and they had been injured, there are some who would’ve questioned Alex’s decisions.

So instead we sacrificed the kids and let those key players have a week of rest. All to end up in exactly the same place I think we would’ve done anyway.

The romantic heart says we should’ve played the best we had and given it a go. The pragmatic head says that we were on a hiding to not very much so play the percentages.

Tl;dr I’d ask 3 questions:

Given the injuries we have, is it likely that we would’ve won that game in Toulouse against an emotionally charged up Toulouse team?

Is it likely that we could have stopped them from scoring 4 tries?

Is it likely that we would have stayed within 4 points?

If the answer to any of those questions is no, I think we made the right choice.

[The Back Row]

See it can be done, a reasoned and clear answer. A wrong one but non the less, decent.

The more frustrating aspect that you did not address was the tactic of box-kicking on their 22 which happened three times I recall in our first three or four attacks - one may have been an attempted kick through, but two is bad enough. Having a system and a plan and being so bloody negative.

We have been around for well over a hundred years in one form or another and this is the single worst result this club has ever seen. They had two amazing trys ruled out - Teddy Thomas in the corner doing his best Denny impression and the wonder try the length of the field which I have no idea why he brought it back to the edge of their 22... havent had the stomach to go and watch it.

Now I know the butterfly effect etc - if they had been allowed we dont know what else could have happened, but if they were both allowed it would be 90+ points, thats how close it was to being one of the sports all time humiliations.

As for Andrews taking someones head off when 60 points down, one Sale fan behind the sticks yelled at him calling him a coward, I dont think thats too wide of the mark - stand there and take it dont get yourself sent off... Anyhow...

To see others on here say 'We should be proud of our young lads' and 'they gave it their all' etc is nonsense. Its humiliating and symptomatic of wider issues - our 7th or 8th place finish in the league will prove that.

Amazing jugs of vin rouge afterwards in the party tent though, so its not all bad.

[Clutch]

I think most fans should have concerns re sanderson but he’s got enough credit in the bank 3/4 play offs. This season is a rebuild. He needs to be judged on next season. The owners won’t be accepting mediocrity then. We are trying to transition to a new style of rugby which takes time.

Re Warr. Hes a poor player. He wouldnt start in any prem team but hes been pretty much 1st choice for us. The coaches love him, which i get, cause hes a good lad obviously but i worry we are blind to his glaring limitations. His kicking isnt even that good. He’s good at the kick to compete stuff but thats easy when you have no range and we make about 10 yards on the kicks if we win the ball back.
If we go into next season with Warr, the attack doesnt improve, and we aren’t top 4 material then Sanderson needs to go.

[Yareet]

See it can be done, a reasoned and clear answer. A wrong one but non the less, decent.

The more frustrating aspect that you did not address was the tactic of box-kicking on their 22 which happened three times I recall in our first three or four attacks - one may have been an attempted kick through, but two is bad enough. Having a system and a plan and being so bloody negative.

We have been around for well over a hundred years in one form or another and this is the single worst result this club has ever seen. They had two amazing trys ruled out - Teddy Thomas in the corner doing his best Denny impression and the wonder try the length of the field which I have no idea why he brought it back to the edge of their 22... havent had the stomach to go and watch it.

Now I know the butterfly effect etc - if they had been allowed we dont know what else could have happened, but if they were both allowed it would be 90+ points, thats how close it was to being one of the sports all time humiliations.

As for Andrews taking someones head off when 60 points down, one Sale fan behind the sticks yelled at him calling him a coward, I dont think thats too wide of the mark - stand there and take it dont get yourself sent off... Anyhow...

To see others on here say 'We should be proud of our young lads' and 'they gave it their all' etc is nonsense. Its humiliating and symptomatic of wider issues - our 7th or 8th place finish in the league will prove that.

Amazing jugs of vin rouge afterwards in the party tent though, so its not all bad.

That’s seemingly conflating two different issues.

You don’t like the kick-heavy style of play which is your prerogative. Although there is lots of evidence to support why teams do that.

However, I don’t think the record loss is because of that style. For me, the much bigger factor was that we had academy players against world class internationals.

[AndaleManito]

To me, the result simply reflects that we had the academy out against Toulouse, in Toulouse, with internationals galore, for whom, as Yareet rightly points out, a win would have a material impact on their season. For us, arguably that's not the case to the same extent.

As a wider issue, I'd argue that English squads, by and large, just don't have the finances to compete with the French teams. There are exceptions,

Out of 22 finalist slots since it became the ERCC in 2014-2025, English teams have made up 5 of those:

- Saracens* 2016 (WIN)
- Saracens* 2017 (WIN)
- Saracens* 2019 (WIN)
- Exeter 2020 (WIN)
- Northampton 2025 (LOSS)

*Of course, Sarries were proven to be beating the salary cap, so IMO they don't count as they aren't comparable to what Sale can and were financing. All other finalists were either French teams, or Leinster (5 appearances, 1 WIN).

So its really 2 out of 22, with 1 comp win out of 11.

All things considered, I'd rather us concentrate on the Prem. However, of course the chance of us making top 4 in the Prem this season seems low, though certainly not impossible and we're always good for a late season charge! It seems more logical to me to go all out on the remaining Prem games, at the expense of putting on a good show in Europe. Of course, supporting a team is rarely logical and I completely get why The Back Row and other Sale fans would want to do out best in both comps. Also, all well and good giving the kids minutes, but we need to ensure that they keep getting them to avoid more Tom Curtis situations.

To me, the situation simply reflects that our squad isn't good enough to run a strong campaign on both fronts. We're too light, have too many injuries, and unfortunately, our recent success in producing England internationals means that some of our best players aren't available for large chunks of the season. In comparison, in France, as I understand the internationals simply play more often for their club (though perhaps I'm not 100% correct on that).

So I suppose we are in a year in transition - okay - I'm personally happy to write off such a large loss under those circumstances, as long as we do really kick on next season. If such a loss had come in for example the 2022-2023 season, or in a *must win* game against a prem team, I would not be so calm.

Regarding Sanderson, I do think he has enough credit in the bank, given how comparatively successful we've been under him, to before him. How much is that to do with the Simon and Jed's increased chequebook in a similar period? Who knows. I agree with the assessment that Sandersons comments in the media around budget for signings have been... less than helpful IMO. Of course we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but Rugby is a business, and most COOs would be ill advised to talk about talent acquisition in a similar manner to Al.

However, I'll always be a Sale fan, whatever happens, so I'll back whoever's in charge. Even if we dropped down a whole league!

.....

Anyway, all the above to me is largely trivial compared to the larger issue of the club finances (and those of our prem rivals too). I'd much rather we own our own stadium than have a good run in Europe and the prem for a few years..... I do wonder how much longer pro Rugby in England will be sustainable, but I suppose I'm rambling onto a different topic.

.......

Separate issue: I massively agree with Maj (and appreciate his modding) that there's no place for abusive language on this forum. Aren't we above that sort of thing? What's the point anyway, it's literally a game. There's plenty of places on the internet to go (Reddit, Beeb article comments, etc) if you want that sort of chat. This forum has always been a place for good natured discussion and I feel lucky as a fan to have it, but The Back Row, I must say you have contributed to a pretty negative sentiment and mood on here that I don't recall there being here before, even though I think your points are totally worth making and are interesting to discuss. I don't see why you can't make them without such hostility? I'm not here to agree with everyone, nor have everyone agree with me, but we don't need to be name calling.

.......

Long and short - Jury still out on Sanderson, he's got enough credit in the bank so far, but we do need some serious signings to come off soon to ensure that this has been a truly *transitional* season.

[The Back Row]

[/quote]

That’s seemingly conflating two different issues.

You don’t like the kick-heavy style of play which is your prerogative. Although there is lots of evidence to support why teams do that.

However, I don’t think the record loss is because of that style. For me, the much bigger factor was that we had academy players against world class internationals.
[/quote]

Thats a fair challenge - I say they go cap in hand. He chose to roll the kids out to be battered, and he chose to push for the ridiculous box kick even on their 22 - which is extreme even for us. Nearly as bad as that away game in Wales at the small stadium (Dragons? Scarletts? Cant recall) where we needed a score to win and we box kicked on halfway with like 30 seconds left... still painful to recall!

[The Back Row]

To me, the result simply reflects that we had the academy out against Toulouse, in Toulouse, with internationals galore, for whom, as Yareet rightly points out, a win would have a material impact on their season. For us, arguably that's not the case to the same extent.

As a wider issue, I'd argue that English squads, by and large, just don't have the finances to compete with the French teams. There are exceptions,

Out of 22 finalist slots since it became the ERCC in 2014-2025, English teams have made up 5 of those:

- Saracens* 2016 (WIN)
- Saracens* 2017 (WIN)
- Saracens* 2019 (WIN)
- Exeter 2020 (WIN)
- Northampton 2025 (LOSS)

*Of course, Sarries were proven to be beating the salary cap, so IMO they don't count as they aren't comparable to what Sale can and were financing. All other finalists were either French teams, or Leinster (5 appearances, 1 WIN).

So its really 2 out of 22, with 1 comp win out of 11.

All things considered, I'd rather us concentrate on the Prem. However, of course the chance of us making top 4 in the Prem this season seems low, though certainly not impossible and we're always good for a late season charge! It seems more logical to me to go all out on the remaining Prem games, at the expense of putting on a good show in Europe. Of course, supporting a team is rarely logical and I completely get why The Back Row and other Sale fans would want to do out best in both comps. Also, all well and good giving the kids minutes, but we need to ensure that they keep getting them to avoid more Tom Curtis situations.

To me, the situation simply reflects that our squad isn't good enough to run a strong campaign on both fronts. We're too light, have too many injuries, and unfortunately, our recent success in producing England internationals means that some of our best players aren't available for large chunks of the season. In comparison, in France, as I understand the internationals simply play more often for their club (though perhaps I'm not 100% correct on that).

So I suppose we are in a year in transition - okay - I'm personally happy to write off such a large loss under those circumstances, as long as we do really kick on next season. If such a loss had come in for example the 2022-2023 season, or in a *must win* game against a prem team, I would not be so calm.

Regarding Sanderson, I do think he has enough credit in the bank, given how comparatively successful we've been under him, to before him. How much is that to do with the Simon and Jed's increased chequebook in a similar period? Who knows. I agree with the assessment that Sandersons comments in the media around budget for signings have been... less than helpful IMO. Of course we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but Rugby is a business, and most COOs would be ill advised to talk about talent acquisition in a similar manner to Al.

However, I'll always be a Sale fan, whatever happens, so I'll back whoever's in charge. Even if we dropped down a whole league!

.....

Anyway, all the above to me is largely trivial compared to the larger issue of the club finances (and those of our prem rivals too). I'd much rather we own our own stadium than have a good run in Europe and the prem for a few years..... I do wonder how much longer pro Rugby in England will be sustainable, but I suppose I'm rambling onto a different topic.

.......

Separate issue: I massively agree with Maj (and appreciate his modding) that there's no place for abusive language on this forum. Aren't we above that sort of thing? What's the point anyway, it's literally a game. There's plenty of places on the internet to go (Reddit, Beeb article comments, etc) if you want that sort of chat. This forum has always been a place for good natured discussion and I feel lucky as a fan to have it, but The Back Row, I must say you have contributed to a pretty negative sentiment and mood on here that I don't recall there being here before, even though I think your points are totally worth making and are interesting to discuss. I don't see why you can't make them without such hostility? I'm not here to agree with everyone, nor have everyone agree with me, but we don't need to be name calling.

.......

Long and short - Jury still out on Sanderson, he's got enough credit in the bank so far, but we do need some serious signings to come off soon to ensure that this has been a truly *transitional* season.

The points on the prem and the salaries is well made. Rugby in england is at a dangerous stage, club rugby that is.

Id LOVE us to do well in both competitons, I think we will do well in neither - but a draw v Quins may be a gift that saves some credit out of this season.

As for negative sentiment - at least it brings some debate. I am no fan of Sanderson and never have been, my views are through that lens, but what baffles me is that MOST on here see it through a 'he can do no wrong, love a Malbec Sunday' lens and they overlook his hideous misquoting of research and faux intellectualism. (Deliberately negative and tounge in cheek there). I don't believe I am out of line with many supporters - not a majority, but a decent minority. I was next to a guy on a "Sale Prem Champions" whatsapp group with some recognisable names from on here/twitter at the game. I was peakign at it over his shoulder, im not on it. That was certainly critical of the Sacred one.

[Yareet]

That’s seemingly conflating two different issues.

You don’t like the kick-heavy style of play which is your prerogative. Although there is lots of evidence to support why teams do that.

However, I don’t think the record loss is because of that style. For me, the much bigger factor was that we had academy players against world class internationals.
[/quote]

Thats a fair challenge - I say they go cap in hand. He chose to roll the kids out to be battered, and he chose to push for the ridiculous box kick even on their 22 - which is extreme even for us. Nearly as bad as that away game in Wales at the small stadium (Dragons? Scarletts? Cant recall) where we needed a score to win and we box kicked on halfway with like 30 seconds left... still painful to recall!
[/quote]

I’m not sure the evidence backs up that rolling out the kids means we are definitely playing a more pragmatic style.

In 23/24 we went away to Leinster and again rolled out the kids (I think it was Asher’s break through season). You can refresh the memory at https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67726902

However, for me the key takeaway is that although we scored a scorcher of a try and many left saying it was a valiant effort we still only scored 3 tries and still lost by 10 points.

The romantic says that was a better outcome for Sale. The pragmatist says it was all risk for an unlikely (and in this case unachieved) reward. And that was (IMO)with a greater number of 1st choice players involved.

[AndaleManito]

As for negative sentiment - at least it brings some debate. I am no fan of Sanderson and never have been, my views are through that lens, but what baffles me is that MOST on here see it through a 'he can do no wrong, love a Malbec Sunday' lens and they overlook his hideous misquoting of research and faux intellectualism. (Deliberately negative and tounge in cheek there). I don't believe I am out of line with many supporters - not a majority, but a decent minority. I was next to a guy on a "Sale Prem Champions" whatsapp group with some recognisable names from on here/twitter at the game. I was peakign at it over his shoulder, im not on it. That was certainly critical of the Sacred one.

Oh I totally get you, I certainly think your points are interesting, I might not agree with all, but then what would be the point of a discussion board if we agreed on everything! I appreciate you've generated some interesting discussion. Was more that I think it would be great to keep this as positive (in language) place rather than resorting to name calling. I certainly don't think Sanderson (or anyone at Sale) should be exempt from criticism.

I think of it like work - my boss should call out when a colleague isn't doing something right, but if they were to call them a moron, I'd be calling that out.

[FarnhamShark]

I've never liked box kicks - too often they gain 5 yards but give away possession. It's a shame that the recent law change giving kick chasers the freedom of the park has encouraged more box kicking. For me, Toulouse showed how it should be done - their handling was frequently gob-smacking.
My issue is that I don't know who makes the decisions in specific on-field situations - the 9, the 10, the Captain, or the Coach? Back Row seems to blame it all on Alex, but it can't possibly be that regimented. My suspicion is that, because Gus' skills are limited (he doesn't have the pace or the acceleration that Raffi does) then we are forced to kick more than we'd like, especially when Raffi spends so much time being injured. It will be interesting to see who we can find to recruit for next season and how that affects our style of play.
(Incidentally, why doesn't Gus pass back to George more often? He can see the whole field, has more time, and is a better kicker).

[Yareet]

Haven’t had a chance to watch this yet but I’m guessing it might answer some questions about why we kick so often

[RinTin]

I can't remember which pod it was (maybe The Rugby Pod) but they were talking about how to beat Toulouse in Toulouse. Pretty sure it was Andy Goode who was saying the tactical kicking and territory are critical to getting the upper hand, openly stating how we wouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with them in attack and defence so we needed to rely on the boot to pin them back and ensure energetic kick chases.

It makes sense in part, but it's all about the execution. All too often the kicks were ineffective, not into space or not long enough.

[The Back Row]

You've obvioiusly never met my boss...