#5228
I think that the issue for me is bigger than whether one club has broken the rules.

The purpose of the salary cap is, I presume, to prevent one, or two, or three teams having an advantage over others simply because they or their owners are richer than the rest.

Inevitably when there are such owners about, who are ambitious for their clubs, there will be pressures on what is and what is not within the rules. Boundaries will be pushed and loopholes exploited.

The obvious signs of this happening is the collection by those clubs of the best players and a domination of the Premiership season after season. The England XV top heavy with representatives from one club is another indicator.

But it is not just money in itself which buys success. It is not just about going to the market and buying the best products. The whole club needs to be run professionally and we have heard Alan Solomons himself compliment a certain club for its coaching and development of younger players.

I think that Premiership rugby might well be at a crossroads: either it keeps, enforces and polices the salary cap, making examples of offenders, OR it allows a free for all where the clubs with the deepest owners' pockets stay at the top whilst clubs like Worcester provide cannon fodder for the richer clubs. That pattern is well established in soccer and possibly also in cricket(?).
#5248
Saracens do have my sympathy when it comes to retaining the players they developed in their academy. As their stock rises, so do their salary expectations.

If they have broken the rules on this then they should be heavily sanctioned (though I expect little to really happen), but I do think clubs need to be further incentivised to put real money into academies by helping them keep hold of the players that come through them.
#5253
Some very fair points on here. I totally agree about the academy credits and particularly where this leads to international representation should be increased.

It looks to me that they’ve genuinely believed this is outside of the cap, or else why make the investments so glaringly obvious. On the other hand it’s a clear financial benefit from the club so how could this not be factored in?

Logically you’d think they must have a significant punishment, but I think it’s more likely a slap on the wrist and a precedent is now set to say points deduction if done again now that the rules are clear...
#5255
Van Cannonball wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:34 pm
It looks to me that they’ve genuinely believed this is outside of the cap, or else why make the investments so glaringly obvious. On the other hand it’s a clear financial benefit from the club so how could this not be factored in?

Logically you’d think they must have a significant punishment, but I think it’s more likely a slap on the wrist and a precedent is now set to say points deduction if done again now that the rules are clear...
I've mentioned this before on this topic (elsewhere on here I think) but the advantage of making it obvious if looked into while not shouting about it is that you have plausible deniability - "look, we might not have fully disclosed, but we can't have been hiding it because..." which would help in mitigation. It's the smart play (billionaires and their lawyers tend to go for those - reward with mitigated risk) - especially if they've potentially got lucky before - if they'd tried to obfuscate and got caught out they'd be on a hiding to nothing. If not - as you've suggested "we'll change the rules but just a slap on the wrists"
#5259
Interesting comments all.

I’m tending to see the academy issue and the joint ventures with senior players as 2 separate issues.

Highlighting the unfairness of spending time, cost and energy developing youngsters only to see them moving on for bigger money tugs at the moral heartstrings.....and we don’t need that one pointing out do we?

Retaining senior world class internationals by funding JV’s in which the player has little input but significant reward is a cynical way of beating the cap. Clearly it will be claimed that said player is learning the ropes of the JV business, whatever, in order to pursue a career after rugby retirement, and that argument may have some legs in some cases, and not in others. In the meantime, said player is nicely tied in to Sarries and unlikely to take the huge €€,s possibly on offer across the channel.

It may be strictly not outwith the rules of the salary cap, but for me it clearly breaks the spirit. However you argue it, the players are rewarded extra by the scheme, and it’s funded by Sarries.

The law of course, may well take the opposing view!

edit.....meanwhile various press reports have it that Sarries are “doubtful” that they can retain the services of Liam Williams, despite him being now at the start of year 2 of a 3 year deal. Ospreys are said to be interested.

Perhaps an uncomfortable time for them to consider launching another JV ?
#5264
TeflonTed wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:12 am
Interesting comments all.

I’m tending to see the academy issue and the joint ventures with senior players as 2 separate issues.

Highlighting the unfairness of spending time, cost and energy developing youngsters only to see them moving on for bigger money tugs at the moral heartstrings.....and we don’t need that one pointing out do we?

I think there could be a case for allowing academy graduates who progress to first team level to have the wage discounted against the salary cap while they remain at the club they were developed at. It will reward clubs who develop there own talent and mean if they have a good group develop together they may not have an issue of not being able to afford them all, at Worcester if we have Kitchener jr, Lawrence, Hill and a few others who if they develop to there full potential the market value will determine there wages north of £150k a year each. We may find ourselves unable to keep these players and remain in the cap. Perhaps a 50% relief on salaries for up to 5 academy graduates would be a sensible way to go forward.
#5315
Saracens’ poster daz_71 posts as follows :-

Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2019 16:28

I think until any appeal is heard and results known it's the last thing we should do. Let's face facts, unless the appeal goes in our favour, we CHEATED. It's maybe time to also admit that Nigel was completely complicit in this. You also have to ask why he set up the dual companies - and the only real reason is Saracens thought they had found a loophole to get around the cap.
It's not easy to say the above but unless the appeal finds differently we will be labelled cheats forever!“

He’s referring to a thread started by a bloke who believes Sarries reaction to the points deduction should be to withdraw their England players from international duties to ensure they avoid relegation by winning all remaining prem. fixtures “most with bonus points”.

We should realise not all Sarries supporters are going to be quite as realistic as daz, and publicly congratulate him.
Warrior7 liked this
#5381
If the alleged events were over several seasons, maybe 35 points deduct should be over this and he next 2 seasons too.

Feel sorry in some respects for Sarries fans about this issue but they have ridden the wave of success the alleged breach has enabled including the ability to have 2 very strong 15 man squads when most can muster 1 or 1 and a bit.

Zero risk of them being relegated even with the ‘ handicap, score and top 6 will be trickier than normal.

Could Mr Wray use this as a reason to generate interest in a break away league or to add to Pro 14 league or similar. Will playing staff be cut / released to keep within limits?

Let’s see how the appeal goes
#5422
FlipFlop wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:53 pm
If the alleged events were over several seasons, maybe 35 points deduct should be over this and he next 2 seasons too.

Feel sorry in some respects for Sarries fans about this issue but they have ridden the wave of success the alleged breach has enabled including the ability to have 2 very strong 15 man squads when most can muster 1 or 1 and a bit.

Zero risk of them being relegated even with the ‘ handicap, score and top 6 will be trickier than normal.

Could Mr Wray use this as a reason to generate interest in a break away league or to add to Pro 14 league or similar. Will playing staff be cut / released to keep within limits?

Let’s see how the appeal goes
Why should the Pro14 be polluted with their presence?
#5428
SimonG wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:28 pm
FlipFlop wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:53 pm
If the alleged events were over several seasons, maybe 35 points deduct should be over this and he next 2 seasons too.

Feel sorry in some respects for Sarries fans about this issue but they have ridden the wave of success the alleged breach has enabled including the ability to have 2 very strong 15 man squads when most can muster 1 or 1 and a bit.

Zero risk of them being relegated even with the ‘ handicap, score and top 6 will be trickier than normal.

Could Mr Wray use this as a reason to generate interest in a break away league or to add to Pro 14 league or similar. Will playing staff be cut / released to keep within limits?

Let’s see how the appeal goes
Why should the Pro14 be polluted with their presence?
Ha! Not our problem. Would solve the 13 team prem nicely, let Falcons back in and shut the door.

Still feel sorry for most of the supporters, not their fault. But the arrogance of Nigel Wray in cockily claiming that investments and salaries are different, just in case us stupid people didn’t understand, is an insult.
#5434
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:35 pm
SimonG wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:28 pm
FlipFlop wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:53 pm
If the alleged events were over several seasons, maybe 35 points deduct should be over this and he next 2 seasons too.

Feel sorry in some respects for Sarries fans about this issue but they have ridden the wave of success the alleged breach has enabled including the ability to have 2 very strong 15 man squads when most can muster 1 or 1 and a bit.

Zero risk of them being relegated even with the ‘ handicap, score and top 6 will be trickier than normal.

Could Mr Wray use this as a reason to generate interest in a break away league or to add to Pro 14 league or similar. Will playing staff be cut / released to keep within limits?

Let’s see how the appeal goes
Why should the Pro14 be polluted with their presence?
Ha! Not our problem. Would solve the 13 team prem nicely, let Falcons back in and shut the door.

Still feel sorry for most of the supporters, not their fault. But the arrogance of Nigel Wray in cockily claiming that investments and salaries are different, just in case us stupid people didn’t understand, is an insult.
A bit harsh on our Celtic and Italian friends TT!

I feel sorry for their supporters who aren't clogging up social media defending their cheating and who are genuinely embarrassed by the actions of their club and am actually quite enjoying Nigel Wray inadvertently continuing to highlight his cheating and therefore causing even more folks to denounce his club.

Keep it up Nigel!
#5458
SimonG wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:28 pm
FlipFlop wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:53 pm
If the alleged events were over several seasons, maybe 35 points deduct should be over this and he next 2 seasons too.

Feel sorry in some respects for Sarries fans about this issue but they have ridden the wave of success the alleged breach has enabled including the ability to have 2 very strong 15 man squads when most can muster 1 or 1 and a bit.

Zero risk of them being relegated even with the ‘ handicap, score and top 6 will be trickier than normal.

Could Mr Wray use this as a reason to generate interest in a break away league or to add to Pro 14 league or similar. Will playing staff be cut / released to keep within limits?

Let’s see how the appeal goes
Why should the Pro14 be polluted with their presence?
I didn’t suggest that Iwanted Sarries to go to Pro 14 or create a breakaway league- merely suggested that Wray might have a huff and choose to do it if the appeal fails.
#5654
FlipFlop wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:44 pm
SimonG wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:28 pm
FlipFlop wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:53 pm
If the alleged events were over several seasons, maybe 35 points deduct should be over this and he next 2 seasons too.

Feel sorry in some respects for Sarries fans about this issue but they have ridden the wave of success the alleged breach has enabled including the ability to have 2 very strong 15 man squads when most can muster 1 or 1 and a bit.

Zero risk of them being relegated even with the ‘ handicap, score and top 6 will be trickier than normal.

Could Mr Wray use this as a reason to generate interest in a break away league or to add to Pro 14 league or similar. Will playing staff be cut / released to keep within limits?

Let’s see how the appeal goes
Why should the Pro14 be polluted with their presence?
I didn’t suggest that Iwanted Sarries to go to Pro 14 or create a breakaway league- merely suggested that Wray might have a huff and choose to do it if the appeal fails.
I didn't say otherwise. I simply said the Pro14 shouldn't be polluted with their presence (should they attempt to join).
#5716
I was put right, quite correctly, yesterday at breakfast when I used the word "appeal" in the context of the Saracens' judgment.

Be that as it may, I note from today's Times that "Saracens have yet to call for a review into the ruling ... and have until Monday to do so..."

I don't know how accurate the report is but I think that we were all under the impression that Saracens had already called for a review.
#5723
A38 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:30 am
And more here:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50407548
The article confirms what we all suspected, a major pr push to manage the news.

The article also says :- "McCall confirmed the club have until Monday, 18 November to officially lodge their appeal."

Which sounds as though they haven't officially requested the review. Which is not what was stated by various others, including TRP. ( which has gone in the bin).

I'm in wait and see mode now.
#5734
TVM wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:02 am
Maybe I hold an odd point of view - but does it not sort of defeat the point if people know you have a PR firm managing the fallout?

It looks all a bit cynical and, if I were thinking lazily, I'd say if they'd done nothing wrong there'd be nothing to clear up.
And since when exactly did anyone make any money err.... err... I mean progress... when people started seeing things for exactly what they are?
#5883
It seems that there will be no review of the judgment:-

https://m.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/ ... 7,16671342

No formal announcement as yet but at least one newspaper has heard something.

The question asked on a number of club boards concerns this season. As I understand it, the calculations are done at the end of the season on what has been spent during that season. It is still possible therefore for Saracens to come in at the end of the season within the cap. How they do that will be down to them - and I have no doubt that their sums will be examined very carefully - not least be the other PRL clubs.

I note that Saracens have hired a PR company to represent them and to put across their case - not to seek a review of the judgment, that's gone it seems, but possibly / probably to have the cap rules changed. We all know the arguments which will be used: developing future England players in their academy will be chief among them no doubt.

And if the cap rules are changed, and backdated to this season, Saracens will not have a problem.

But two questions arise: a) will the other PRL clubs accept such a change? and b) are there other PRL clubs who have transgressed?

My fear is that a Saracens argument to increase the cap will gain momentum, particularly in the press, and that some owners of other clubs would not object as they have deep pockets (and may have something to be "economical" about).
#5899
It’ll be interesting to see if they prioritise the prem over Europe. But with what they’ve spent they probably don’t have to as I can’t see them having to make any significant squad changes this season.

The only part of the ruling that I don’t understand is there has been no indication if they are over the cap this season and most restructure to get under it. Logic says they are therefore is another sanction inbound next season?
#5915
W4rriorz1980 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:45 pm
Did Sarries run the risk of further sanctions if they failed an appeal? A further points deduction? A top up on the fine?
I don’t think it was an appeal as such, more a verification that the proper procedures had been followed.

If anything the only potential outcome would of been a reduction in the sanction.
W4rriorz1980 liked this
#5924
The Times this morning suggests that Saracens will actually be within the salary cap this season. The reason? No more investments will be made to joint venture companies.

I am sure that all PRL clubs will be very very careful with their submissions to the Salary Cap monitors at the end of this season. Twelve clubs will be watching Saracens intensely - with Saracens watching everybody else with the same diligence.
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