#61042
Yesterday this company executed a debenture in favour of Loxwood Holdings Limited.

The debenture covers:-
All that leasehold property known as sixways stadium, warriors way, hindlip, worcester, WR3 8ZE and land on the south east of six ways stadium, warriors way, hindlip, worcester all of which property is registered at hm land registry with title number WR204179 and WR204310 for more details please refer to the instrument.
Contains fixed charge.
Contains floating charge.
Contains negative pledge.


Loxwood Holdings appears to belong to Christopher Holland who is connected with Wasps Mark 2.

The debenture (known in my old trade as a fixed and floater) charges all the assets owned by Atlas, lock stock and barrel in support of finance provided by Loxwood / Holland.

We do not know how much the finance is, what happened - if anything - to the DCMS loan and who owns the freehold of the Stadium and the rest of the site.

But at the very least it does indicate that there is a very close relationship between Atlas and wasps Mark 2 - something which comes as rather a surprise.
#61043
I refer my learned friend to my post of Feb17th….Wasps at Worcester.

If they do try to use the strap-line “there’s a buzz around Sixways” I shall try hard to embarrass the basically unembarrassable.

No wonder they’ve been silent for the last few weeks. They’ve been busy plotting a merger.

Shabby beyond belief. And Warriors supporters shouldn’t worry about it attending any future fans’ forum, the room will be filled with Wasps supporters.
#61045
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:10 pm
I refer my learned friend to my post of Feb17th….Wasps at Worcester.

If they do try to use the strap-line “there’s a buzz around Sixways” I shall try hard to embarrass the basically unembarrassable.

No wonder they’ve been silent for the last few weeks. They’ve been busy plotting a merger.

Shabby beyond belief. And Warriors supporters shouldn’t worry about it attending any future fans’ forum, the room will be filled with Wasps supporters.
Wasps supporters or Wasps apologists?
#61046
SimonG wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 3:09 pm
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:10 pm
I refer my learned friend to my post of Feb17th….Wasps at Worcester.

If they do try to use the strap-line “there’s a buzz around Sixways” I shall try hard to embarrass the basically unembarrassable.

No wonder they’ve been silent for the last few weeks. They’ve been busy plotting a merger.

Shabby beyond belief. And Warriors supporters shouldn’t worry about it attending any future fans’ forum, the room will be filled with Wasps supporters.
Wasps supporters or Wasps apologists?
Wouldn’t surprise me if they bussed them in from all over….the few hundred in Cov, 2 men and a dog from Adams Park and the groundsman from Henley.

Oh, and a poster or 2 from the SN board, particularly anyone who might wish to be at the head of a new supporters club…..you know, “we are 16th man” and bouncing pompom girls.
#61058
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 3:29 pm
SimonG wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 3:09 pm
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:10 pm
I refer my learned friend to my post of Feb17th….Wasps at Worcester.

If they do try to use the strap-line “there’s a buzz around Sixways” I shall try hard to embarrass the basically unembarrassable.

No wonder they’ve been silent for the last few weeks. They’ve been busy plotting a merger.

Shabby beyond belief. And Warriors supporters shouldn’t worry about it attending any future fans’ forum, the room will be filled with Wasps supporters.
Wasps supporters or Wasps apologists?
Wouldn’t surprise me if they bussed them in from all over….the few hundred in Cov, 2 men and a dog from Adams Park and the groundsman from Henley.

Oh, and a poster or 2 from the SN board, particularly anyone who might wish to be at the head of a new supporters club…..you know, “we are 16th man” and bouncing pompom girls.
I think you forgot all the schoolkids holding their free tickets wondering where Wasps will be playing when they leave school!
#61060
Here's a theory based purely on guesswork and with no evidence at all.

1 ) Atlas did not have the money to complete the purchase.

2) Wasps saw Sixways as their best option for a temporary base for, say, the next 3/5 years pending the building of their own stadium closer to their supporters' heartland.

3) Wasps did not want to lose Sixways to a competitor; they had no other ideal ground option.

4) To make sure Wasps could occupy Sixways, Mr Wasps provided the necessary cash for Atlas to complete the purchase.

5) Atlas would receive rent from Wasps but no doubt the level of rent paid would reflect the loan i.e. rent would be much lower than at , say, Solihull.

6) In short, a mutual back scratching arrangement designed to launch Atlas AND provide somewhere for Wasps to play. It was expedient.

That makes perfect business sense but does little or nothing for WW Mark 2.
#61062
Entirely plausible A38. Devil in the detail as ever but I wonder what is to stop the following scenario;

Wasps can't afford to keep paying rent, they default, without this income Atlas can't afford the upkeep/loan repayment, Atlas then default and the stadium/land passes to the man behind Wasps.

And as you say, seems like there is little in here for Worcester. And from what was said on the podcast it doesn't sound like much thought has even gone into how a WW team rises up. It just doesn't figure. I can't see how this is anything but the end.
#61070
The latest BBC report:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65465381

I'm afraid that whoever wrote the piece does not understand what a debenture is. You can't "take out a debenture". A debenture in this context is simply the document which sets out what assets are charged (mortgaged) together with all the necessary terms, conditions and definitions. It was executed in this case by the borrower (Atlas) in favour of the lender.

This might all sound very picky and technical but such things are important especially as there has been a great deal of misinformation and misunderstanding around.
#61072
I also wrote elsewhere that the BBC article and this quote from Atlas;
Warriors co-owner Jim O'Toole told BBC Hereford & Worcester: "It is a security of tenure deposit for Wasps to play at Sixways"

Implies Wasps have put down a holding deposit to play at Sixways. But in fact Wasps (or Wasps' owner) have loaned Atlas some money, with the Atlas putting up sixways as security against this loan. This isn't a deposit is it? It's a very important and blatant mistruth that fundamentally changes what the money is for.
#61073
And as far as I can see not all of the Sixways site is caught under the debenture, only the Stadium itself and a parcel of land to the south east.

This suggests to me that somehow - don't ask me how - Atlas have acquired what we might loosely call "the car park" for development purposes in due course i.e. the 4 star hotel Jim was talking about on the podcast.

We do know that "the car park" is made up of various Land Registry titles but it is not clear at the moment who owns what. There has also been talk in the past of a portion of the site being leased to the County Council in respect of the hospital bus service and of ransom strips.

Maybe all will become clear.
#61109
Freypal wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:32 am
I also wrote elsewhere that the BBC article and this quote from Atlas;
Warriors co-owner Jim O'Toole told BBC Hereford & Worcester: "It is a security of tenure deposit for Wasps to play at Sixways"

Implies Wasps have put down a holding deposit to play at Sixways. But in fact Wasps (or Wasps' owner) have loaned Atlas some money, with the Atlas putting up sixways as security against this loan. This isn't a deposit is it? It's a very important and blatant mistruth that fundamentally changes what the money is for.
Blatant mistruths seem to be the currency of Atlas.
#61113
A38 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 11:04 pm

You can't "take out a debenture". A debenture in this context is simply the document which sets out what assets are charged (mortgaged) together with all the necessary terms, conditions and definitions.
Didn't know tar. Every day is a schoolday.
#61638
It will be interesting to see what evolves.

I heard Atlas described on BBC H&W this evening by Alan Moss of Cube International*, the sponsor of Worcester Ladies, as a venue owner and not a rugby club.

This is of course what we had assumed but it is interesting that it comes from somebody far closer to Atlas - although not of course part of it - than any of us on the outside.

*Forgive me if I got that wrong, I was driving at the time.
#61674
The charge against stadium and land securing the loan made by Chris Holland’s Loxwood Holdings Ltd to Atlas remains unsatisfied according to Companies House.

The loan, registered on May 3 was reportedly due for settlement in 21 days.

This is not to say the terms haven’t been met, it could simply be a Companies House data update delay.
#61675
I am well out of touch with up to date practice but in my day It was one of the oddities of life that whilst charges executed by companies were indeed registered at Companies House their satisfaction (i.e. when the security is discharged) did not have to be. Indeed, it was for the company itself to advise the discharge and quite often this did not happen.

So, if the situation has not changed since my retirement, it is not sinister that the charge appears still to be "live". It may not be.

The situation though would be different as regards the Land Registry. which would be a far more reliable source.
#61678
A38 wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 3:51 pm
I am well out of touch with up to date practice but in my day It was one of the oddities of life that whilst charges executed by companies were indeed registered at Companies House their satisfaction (i.e. when the security is discharged) did not have to be. Indeed, it was for the company itself to advise the discharge and quite often this did not happen.

So, if the situation has not changed since my retirement, it is not sinister that the charge appears still to be "live". It may not be.

The situation though would be different as regards the Land Registry. which would be a far more reliable source.
Point taken, and a simple check at the Land Registry ( we have the required title numbers) is all that’s required. It is however, not free!

And I’m interested, but not that interested.
#61764
Just a back to the top really.

And a reminder, as pointed out elsewhere, that we shouldn’t forget that:-

a) WRFC Trading Ltd remains in Administration, with outstanding charges in favour of The English Sports Council (charge dated Feb 2021, so Covid support?) J&W remain currently shown as directors at Companies House.
and
b) Sixways Stadium Ltd remains in Receivership, also with outstanding charges in favour of The English Sports Council (as agent and trustee for the beneficiaries) dated Aug 2022 . J&W remain currently shown as directors at Companies House.

So according to Companies House records Atlas have not actually taken over anything as yet, despite announcements of completion.

I’m sure this is merely a paperwork delay at CH, isn’t it?😀

Edit….reading updates on LI and elsewhere, there seems to be a misunderstanding in certain places that those of us still showing interest in the detail of the Atlas Deal/No-deal are not being realistic.

Let’s be clear, we know WW have gone, we know there’ll be no magic solution, we’re not clutching at straws. Although reports of a possible restructuring to a Prem 1 and Prem 2 structure might appear to be the end of a straw poking up from the muddy water. I can’t see that happening.

There are calls for “move on.”., almost “forget it”.

Well I won’t. I will continue to try and understand just what Jolly Jim and the Silent Sandford are up to, and if there’s any chance at all of bringing into the public domain just how it all went tits up then so much the better.

At the moment I still feel Jim is just not as clever as he thinks he is, did have good intentions, and a fairly rubbish plan.

Not so sure about Sandford….he’s certainly the one who brought in the very dodgy Yanks, who apparently have not quite disappeared. There's much to try and understand yet.
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