By A38
#17740
https://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/p ... -statement

This statement was quite depressing enough for me to read as a supporter of Warriors. But that's nothing compared to those who depend on rugby for a living.

We have talked about the financial precariousness of certain clubs in the past, in the pre Covid era. That situation, particularly in the Championship, is now considerably worse.
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#17755
It doesn’t get any easier does it?

The PRL link gives a further link to a statement from Exeter, which includes :-
“The announcement is a huge blow, not only all of us here at Exeter Rugby Club, but to the 1,000 supporters who had so generously donated the remainder of their 2019/20 Season Ticket back to the club, and who we were excited to welcome back into Sandy Park next week.“

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/e ... -statement

Which seems to suggest that the limited 1,000 spectators were drawn from those who donated, rather than by ballot of the entire ST holder list.

Which sounds fair enough to me.

I wonder what we’ll do when and if the time comes?
By A38
#17763
The owners' message which is included in the latest e-mail from the Club makes grim reading.
By FlipFlop
#17767
Is there no possibility for clubs to run pay per view style while clubs cannot have spectators?

Many businesses are having to review business models right now instead of saying “ well we can do it the way it’s been done for years, so that’s it- finished.

I’m trying not to over simplify the issue and I know supporters won’t get the same buzz this way, but surely the techs could look into it as a medium term solution to stave off the worst case scenario.

Less easy for Championship and lower, but surely the top leagues could discuss?
By Neiljk
#17769
There is nothing to suggest we have any financial strength to see us through. We don’t have a wealthy backer as some of the other big clubs and it’s clear we aren’t able to invest in the squad in the same way as others. At the same time pretty much all income has gone.

I can foresee us going to the wall or some consolidations or mergers.

Worrying times.
By A38
#17772
I have a dilemma. I pay for my 2020/21 Season Ticket by monthly direct debit. Should I cancel it?

Nobody can predict accurately how the next few months will pan out but I think that it is unlikely that Government money will find its way into rugby in sufficient amounts to ensure the survival of Premiership clubs who do not have enough resources to survive.

In such circumstances, Worcester will need the regular cash flow from myself and all the other STHs who pay monthly. For all I know that cash flow might, repeat might be crucial to the Club's survival.

It certainly seems improbable that we shall be allowed into Sixways to watch rugby before the New Year. It might even be Easter before that might be possible. Who knows?

So do I, do we continue to donate money to the Club in the hope that all will be well? Or do we look to our own personal finances?
User avatar
By Abmatt
#17773
Think of it this way.

If you were in financial dire straits, would the club donate money to you?

Harsh, I know. I have no doubt we will all support the club in whatever way we can, but a rugby ST is a luxury that, depending on how things go, many may not be able to warrant or afford.

When I read the statement I took it to be a warning that there may be worse to come.

I hope I’m wrong!
User avatar
By Latecomer
#17775
Abmatt wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:31 pm
Think of it this way.

If you were in financial dire straits, would the club donate money to you?
Don't think that analogy holds up Abmatt.
Can't see how you could ever reasonably expect any sports team to provide financial assistance to members of the the public (supporter or otherwise).
For me, I get a lot out of supporting MY rugby club and want to support them in whatever way I can under pretty horrendous circumstances.
A38 ponders whether they should continue with their direct debits, I've paid for 20/21 Season ticket in full and wont't be asking for a refund.
I do appreciate it all depends on an individual's financial circumstances, but hope as many as possible will support the club and help find a way through this mess.
By Neiljk
#17777
The trouble is I suspect season ticket money will be dead and gone if we go to the wall. We’ll be well down the list of creditors and longer this scenario goes on the worse the issue gets.

I buy 4 tickets, so the risk is not a few hundred quid.

For now I’m hanging on in there, but going to need to keep an eye as if at any point it becomes clear we’re done then at that point I’ll pull my DD.

Even worse case scenario is we end up being merged or subsumed into Wasps or Glos.
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#17778
It’s an interesting side to the debate, complex because everyone has slightly different personal circumstances.

One angle not yet raised is the social aspect of being a long standing season ticket holder. That’s me for well over 20 years (don’t know exactly how long), since together with one friend, I bought a half year ST offer, I think in a Dec. I also think this was the first year the half ST was offered, (can anyone date that?) but I may be wrong. We’d been buying match day tickets before that, and the east stand didn’t exist.

When the old tented east stand went up we secured seats on the North 10m line, one row from the back. The wind blew, the scaffold rattled, and we got to know those sitting around us. Several of whom I’m still in regular contact with. We went to away games, (anyone remember Craig Gillies scoring at Rugby?, running one in from our own half and looking like a giraffe on speed) nearly got locked up in Gloucester, met for pints, enjoyed many Christmas Curry Nights, and off season Summer Curry Nights too.
Along the way I’ve met several folk I’m happy to call friends, and many many acquaintances. (And one or two I’d happily avoid if I see them approaching along The Tything).
Before the sodding virus there were regular breakfast meetings, 7 or 8 people happily discussing everything, and sometimes even the rugby. That’s now become a regular evening Zoom meeting, we don’t agree about everything (or anything) and that’s good.
That’s my rugby crowd, and it’s different from my other friendship groups, and equally valuable.

With that aspect in mind, I’m happy to support by donating, mine happens to be on a monthly basis, so is easily stopped should catastrophe occur.

As others have said, for people who are under financial pressure it’s a no-brainer, get your refunds with a clear conscience, and for those who choose to donate it’s become almost an act of charity!

We all suspect this could get worse before it gets better, so keep it in perspective, keep safe, and enjoy whatever rugby you can get your (virtual) hands on. And if it all goes tits-up, support your local club, you’ll meet some decent folk.
Last edited by TeflonTed on Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
By Neiljk
#17779
I’d find it hard to contemplate a future with no Worcester rugby. I started going when my in laws moved to Worcester in 1994, so it was some time around 1995 or 6 I started going regularly. We had season tickets in the West Stand which then got moved to east. All my kids have had tickets, my eldest had an ST when he was 3 or 4, but he is now graduated and full time in London. My wife, my sister in law and my parents for the last 2 seasons have had season tickets and we know the people around us well. To lose this would be a huge blow, it’s been a backdrop to the last 25 years for me and a major element of family life.

In the worst case I’ll watch my local club who play right at the bottom of the pyramid. I’d never go to Wasps
User avatar
By patgadd
#17780
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:08 am
Before the sodding virus there were regular breakfast meetings, 7 or 8 people happily discussing everything, and sometimes even the rugby. That’s now become a regular evening Zoom meeting, we don’t agree about everything (or anything) and that’s good.
The trouble is that when (if?) the breakfast meetings reconvene, it won't feel right without a glass of Shiraz in the hand!
User avatar
By west brom warrior
#17783
A38 wrote:I have a dilemma. I pay for my 2020/21 Season Ticket by monthly direct debit. Should I cancel it?

So do I, do we continue to donate money to the Club in the hope that all will be well? Or do we look to our own personal finances?
Its a dilemma facing many my personal opinion is that I have tried to keep my payments out to small businesses like my local gym going even during the lockdown. I am still be paid fully and felt I can afford it but its a personal choice. Plenty of friends stopped paying for season tickets or membership costs during the lockdown as they were not using the services.

On the message from the owners its clear that the club is facing a bleak future as things stand, the owners are not personally that wealthy in comparison to other owners and they bought a loss making club with plans to turn it into a sustainable business, part of the plan was increasing attendances, obviously with spectators now banned its main income source is not available.

There will be businesses going to the wall and professional sport is not exempt from this, its a sad and sobering thought but while this pandemic continues the reality is very bleak for a lot of people in the short term.
User avatar
By Abmatt
#17785
@TeflonTed the club used to offer a half season ticket for the second part of the season, but I think it it the first time it has been offered at the start.
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By ROLLO
#17788
Yes Ted I was at that game at Rugby too and remember Craig's run for the try, I didn't think he had it in him. He never did it again either.
I don't know if the WN headline about Warriors folding is jorno licence or not. However the directors will have a duty not to trade beyond a certain point and I am unsure of how far we are form that.
I wonder if CVC may stump up some more cash or loan to protect their investment.
Personally I would be against the taxpayer subsidising anything that paid performers c£900 k a year ( 2 ) and many £600 K.
By A38
#17790
I have no doubt that the RFU and PRL are lobbying Whitehall heavily at the moment to get some form of financial support. They will not be alone as other industries like the hospitality sector will be particularly vociferous. But HMG will have to be very careful about the £bs it has already borrowed and any political i.e. electoral fallout. It cannot be seen to be favouring any sector which has connections to significant private money.

So a decision tree might look something like this:-

Support sport in general? Yes. Good for mental health wellbeing, politically OK

Support rugby at all levels? Yes - as above.

Support Professional rugby? Getting tricky given wealthy owners at some clubs and high salaries earned by a (small) number of players. But, on balance, Yes - expedient to avoid 5/6 clubs going out of business which is quite likely.

Support PRL Clubs? Yes - but Championship clubs and clubs in devolved administrations also to be considered

Support only those PRL Clubs who are not owned by people with "deep pockets"? No. Impossible to differentiate. Therefore same support to go to each Club.

Any conditions to be applied to support? Yes - to be negotiated, possibly to include further tightening of salary cap

Support in the form of outright gifts, loans or share capital taken? Loans would be politically expedient

How much? Say £5m to each PRL club with maybe more if lockdown continues = £65m plus monies for the RFU etc etc. So say £100m/£150m in all. That doesn't sound that much in the context of the billions being spent currently on COVID linked issues.

But, who knows. Better wait and see I suppose - as usual.
User avatar
By Abmatt
#17796
When you throw all other sporting interests into the mix it could become very expensive.

What do football out number rugby clubs? 2:1/3:1?

Imho the best solution, if offered would be funds to the relevant governing bodies for them to distribute. After all the RFU does that fairly, don’t they?
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#17800
Abmatt wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:53 pm
When you throw all other sporting interests into the mix it could become very expensive.

What do football out number rugby clubs? 2:1/3:1?

Imho the best solution, if offered would be funds to the relevant governing bodies for them to distribute. After all the RFU does that fairly, don’t they?
According to t’internet.....

Rugby... 1809 clubs
Association Football...over 40,000.

So over 20:1
User avatar
By Abmatt
#17801
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:18 pm
Abmatt wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:53 pm
When you throw all other sporting interests into the mix it could become very expensive.

What do football out number rugby clubs? 2:1/3:1?

Imho the best solution, if offered would be funds to the relevant governing bodies for them to distribute. After all the RFU does that fairly, don’t they?
According to t’internet.....

Rugby... 1809 clubs
Association Football...over 40,000.

So over 20:1
I knew someone would look it up :caffine: :clap:
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#17804
Abmatt wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:25 pm
TeflonTed wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:18 pm
Abmatt wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:53 pm
When you throw all other sporting interests into the mix it could become very expensive.

What do football out number rugby clubs? 2:1/3:1?

Imho the best solution, if offered would be funds to the relevant governing bodies for them to distribute. After all the RFU does that fairly, don’t they?
According to t’internet.....

Rugby... 1809 clubs
Association Football...over 40,000.

So over 20:1
I knew someone would look it up :caffine: :clap:
I think that’s called passive delegation!
User avatar
By Latecomer
#17810
Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:02 pm
https://warriors.co.uk/2020/09/23/a-mes ... he-owners/

"Playing matches behind closed doors for another six months is clearly not sustainable for this club nor for the Premiership as a whole. The additional loss of our events business puts further pressure on our chances for financial survival."
The follow up article in the Worcester News tonight is a bit more positive :-
https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/sport/1 ... statement/
Lets not all jump into refund mode too soon !
By FlipFlop
#17814
Let’s not forget the likely pressure from Banks andFinanciers here, overseeing their interests and ‘investment’ value reduce currently. Chuck in HMRC payments and it may not be fully in owners hands. We’re Prem shares offered as security early doors by owners, to lenders?

I don’t want to be one of 4 Apocolyptic horsemen riding around the club but in the past 6 months there have already been issues surrounding delayed filings and lateHMRC payments.

It’s not going to be any easier now.
By A38
#17820
I think that we all understand the difficulties under which the Worcester News is operating at the present time. There were undoubted problems in the regional newsprint industry generally even before Covid and I for one am grateful that we still have a daily local newspaper. Other towns of a similar size have to make do with a weekly paper.

However, one of the problems with the Worcester News is highlighted in today's edition and is illustrated by two contrasting headlines:-

On Page 5 (i.e. in the general news part of the paper) :- Club at risk of closure.

On the Back Page (i.e. in the sports section) :- Fighting on...No fans for up to six months but co-owner is adamant Warriors have the clout to survive latest Covid storm.

The Page 5 story was probably written up to 24 hours before the Back Page story but both appear in the same edition and with two different messages: Page 5: Problem - Back Page: No Problem

The Editorial also discusses the Warriors' situation and is in line with the Page 5 story. It doesn't seem to take into account the paper's own back page.

So, what to make of it?

My take is that the Back Page is the later news and what it says is far more encouraging than I had expected.
User avatar
By west brom warrior
#17828
The sports journalist at the Worcester News relies on good relations with the club to get access and interviews so is more likely to write a more positive article. The news journalist less so therefore they will write what they think the story is.
User avatar
By Latecomer
#17835
A38 wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:02 am
The Page 5 story was probably written up to 24 hours before the Back Page story but both appear in the same edition and with two different messages: Page 5: Problem - Back Page: No Problem

The Editorial also discusses the Warriors' situation and is in line with the Page 5 story. It doesn't seem to take into account the paper's own back page.

So, what to make of it?

My take is that the Back Page is the later news and what it says is far more encouraging than I had expected.
The back page article was indeed released 24 hours after the Page 5 statement. I suspect the second press release might be in response to some knee jerk reaction from supporters spooked by the initial statement (ie. Stopping Direct Debits and Season Ticket refund enquiries).
The initial statement I'm sure is part of a coordinated campaign from all Prem clubs to emphasise the gravity of the situation to the Government.
Let's hang in there fellow supporters and see how things unfold before we do anything that will damage the club even more.
We are are ALL part of Worcester Warriors are we not ??
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By Macwarrior
#17837
How about crowd funding linked to some form of live access to tv coverage? Or an option to pay a full seat price for live tv coverage if it was available on a match by match basis, including away games. If all the clubs took part then the revenue would even out over time.

Just a thought...
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User avatar
By Latecomer
#17840
Macwarrior wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:15 am
How about crowd funding linked to some form of live access to tv coverage? Or an option to pay a full seat price for live tv coverage if it was available on a match by match basis, including away games. If all the clubs took part then the revenue would even out over time.

Just a thought...
Nice idea in principle MacWarrior :yes:
Not sure you would get much take up from casual supporters at full match ticket price.
If priced sensibly I'm sure it would bring in some much needed income.
However, BT Sport would need to be on board to provide the broadcasting platform (and NOT on the Red button either :brickwall: )
By Macwarrior
#17842
That’s a good point Latecomer and it’s in everybody’s interest, including BT, to maintain a healthy Premiership. If all parties got their heads together I am sure a combination of crowd funding, match day tv fees and possibly some form of merchandising would help reduce the financial impact of an empty stadium.

I don’t know how many Warriors fans there are, but if as many as possible, did as much as they were able, then it might just make the difference between survival and closure.
Latecomer liked this
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#17868
The compromise that PRL and BTS came up with, by broadcasting some games on the BTS 1, 2 and 3 channels, and making the other games available by streaming on the BTExtra channels is certainly better than nothing.

It’s reasonable that those who have paid ST subscriptions and can’t get into the stadium can at least watch for free via the match by match link, this is certainly better than nothing. Those of us with BTS subscriptions as well as Wuss ST’s have ended up essentially paying twice!

But the big problem with providing a full pay per view service is that they don’t resource the BTEx games fully. No pundits, no preview, nothing at half time, no post match review. And this is thought to be because quite simply they don’t have the staff to do this, there’s only one Ugo Monye, (some will say that’s a very good thing)

It’s all a bugger’s muddle, but there again, so are a lot of things in the new normal.
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#17929
According to press this morning without promises of govt support there’s now pressure from premiership owners to postpone 20/21 start until some level of stadium attendance is confirmed.
By A38
#18007
Owen Slot in The Times this morning argues that Premiership clubs should be allowed to admit a limited number of spectators to games. He says that the test events at Quins and Gloucester showed that it can be done in a Covid safe way.

He goes on: "The concern for Government is the before and after: people travelling together, congestion on public transport, big groups heading en masse afterwards to pubs.

Yet this all can be dealt with..."

I quite appreciate that it would be impossible for HMG to make exceptions for Worcester but I cannot see that such objections would relate to a Sixways limited to, say, 2000 STHs. Pubs and public transport would not apply.

Slot finishes : "It is time to let some fans back in."
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#18065
It’s not a given that all ST holders would be bothered with a socially-distanced, sterile, no-bar, no close-seated mates stadium visit.

Those of us who live very close, (I’m 3.5 miles as the crow flies, I know of 2 who are closer!) may just as well go along if allowed, but many I know travel significant distances and rely on pre-match food and bar chat as an important part of the match day experience. Would they bother?
By FlipFlop
#18090
Given the apparent inability of folk to exit pubs at the magic 10 PM in major towns and cities without it “putting excessive demands” on public transport, taxi’s and local constabulary and ambulance services, I’d doubt how many would observe 3-4 seats between supporters, get the track and trace app for Sixways attendees or be okay with no bars and food to even merit opening, but the increasing sense of civic indignity at non attendance does cause me some worry over where priorities lie.

Even A Healy esq seemed to raise a Sport must return demand at virtually all cost.

Some of these sports need may need to look at, and reconsider their model.
By g2forumsm
#18119
TeflonTed wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:23 pm
It’s not a given that all ST holders would be bothered with a socially-distanced, sterile, no-bar, no close-seated mates stadium visit.

Those of us who live very close, (I’m 3.5 miles as the crow flies, I know of 2 who are closer!) may just as well go along if allowed, but many I know travel significant distances and rely on pre-match food and bar chat as an important part of the match day experience. Would they bother?
The amateur club is open beforehand for a drink.
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#18130
g2forumsm wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:54 am
TeflonTed wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:23 pm
It’s not a given that all ST holders would be bothered with a socially-distanced, sterile, no-bar, no close-seated mates stadium visit.

Those of us who live very close, (I’m 3.5 miles as the crow flies, I know of 2 who are closer!) may just as well go along if allowed, but many I know travel significant distances and rely on pre-match food and bar chat as an important part of the match day experience. Would they bother?
The amateur club is open beforehand for a drink.
Thanks for the reminder, that’s my usual pre-match habit, but it’s been so long I’d almost forgotten!
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