#5279
If they are appeal;ing the RFU decision, the RFU are hardly going to turn around and say 'ooooh go on, you little scamp, we'll let you off then' having come down hard once - it'll have to be on a strong point of law.

So I think accusations of softness on a favourite child are unfair on this occasion.
#5287
Pour encourager les autres.

I think that this is one significant element of the ruling. It will, or should, deter other clubs with access to deep pockets from trying to do much the same.

That's to say if the ruling is not overturned.

It doesn't matter if the fine or points reduction are diluted, the principle will have been established. That is the salient point in my view.

After all the purpose of the salary cap is:-

- to ensure the financial viability of all clubs and the competition.

- to control inflationary pressures on clubs' costs and provide a level playing field for clubs and a competitive Premiership.

(Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50300756)
#5300
TVM wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:57 am
patgadd wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:34 am
GoldFinch wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:23 am
Is it an RFU decision? Thought it was Premiership Rugby.. As it is their rules that have been seen to be breached.
Yup, Premiership Rugby it is.
Excuse me, Premiership rugby.

Either way the principle is the same!
I think the significance is that PRL is owned by the clubs... Not the RFU.. the other 12 clubs in the PRL.. I would guess they all had a heads up before the sanction went to press.
#5310
Absolutely wonderful news. After years and years of cheating (remember previously they paid a settlement fee so a previous inquiry was ended) we now have a clean competition and Saracens are now known to be cheats. The titles they won in the last two seasons are utterly worthless as they were won by cheating.

Of course the latest inquiry is only for the last three seasons and not this one so it's pretty fair to assume they are cheating this season too.

The only decent thing to do now is to remove the titles they have won and either award them to the runners-up or award no titles for those seasons.

It's now a fact - Saracens are cheats. What a wonderful day for those who want an honest competition!
#5317
Since we seem to have 2 threads on the same subject, I’ll post this on both!

Saracens’ poster daz_71 posts as follows :-

Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2019 16:28

I think until any appeal is heard and results known it's the last thing we should do. Let's face facts, unless the appeal goes in our favour, we CHEATED. It's maybe time to also admit that Nigel was completely complicit in this. You also have to ask why he set up the dual companies - and the only real reason is Saracens thought they had found a loophole to get around the cap.
It's not easy to say the above but unless the appeal finds differently we will be labelled cheats forever!“

He’s referring to a thread started by a bloke who believes Sarries reaction to the points deduction should be to withdraw their England players from international duties to ensure they avoid relegation by winning all remaining prem. fixtures “most with bonus points”.

We should realise not all Sarries supporters are going to be quite as realistic as daz, and publicly congratulate him
#5340
TeflonTed wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:22 pm
Since we seem to have 2 threads on the same subject, I’ll post this on both!

Saracens’ poster daz_71 posts as follows :-

Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2019 16:28


It's not easy to say the above but unless the appeal finds differently we will be labelled cheats forever!“

This is a poignant sentence . Look at Harelquins and bloodgate. 13 years late and they haven't been forgiven and never will be by some.

I generally find refusing to forgive a bit pointless in the grand scheme - The quote has been attributed to several people, but the sentiment 'holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die' is a true one.

But that's by the by.

You can expect Saracens to chase this to the highest possible level they can take it to - their whole business model and way of operation depends on it. Don't expect resolution any time soon.
#5345
I assume the full judgement has not been read by anyone yet so its hard to know what exactly what they were found guilty of was it incompetence in failing to report certain situations (as suggested by the Saracens statement), mismanagement or willfully misleading and attempting to deceive the salary cap.

Until that is known I will reserve judgement on the club, I have no ill feeling towards the supporters or the players and nobody with a reasonable thought process would blame either of those two groups they are not guilty parties.

The wider implications of this is greater restraint from clubs in terms of bonus's outside the salary cap, it was common at many clubs years ago for players partners to be 'event organisers' for a club event and be paid far over the going rate to put on one event a year as a way of managing salary cap restrictions.
#5354
ROLLO wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:23 am
I am not sure how long this can run. One has to presume that Sarries are still over the salary cap this season which will have to be addressd in some way amd sharpish, otherwsie every game they play is unfair rules.
How can a salary bill be reduced with so many players contracted? It's always dangerous to talk about contracts without seeing the detail in the small print and there could well be a clause which would apply.

But other than that, if Saracens do have to do something this season if they lose the appeal, the only ways forward I can see are players voluntarily agreeing to have their contracts curtailed or amended or players going out on loan.

In the latter case, most if not all Prem clubs will be up to their salary cap and / or not have any more money. Worcester would if think qualify on both counts! That would limit loans to Championship clubs or elsewhere in Europe.

But, as ever, the advice must be to wait and see rather than speculate. So I'll shut up.
#5387
And it gets worse......from skysports.com:-

“Saracens are facing another fine after failing to send any representatives to the Champions Cup launch in Cardiff on Wednesday.

Director of rugby Mark McCall and club captain Brad Barritt had been due to attend, but the cup holders told organisers on Tuesday they would no longer be there.

The club have been informed they are in breach of the competition's participation agreement and a financial penalty is likely.”
https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/n ... cup-launch
#5391
poyntonshark wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:27 am
Some appear to believe that only the 5 joint investments with/for players take them over the cap, if so then squad could remain "as is".
Well, that theory will always be correct - by removing the 'cheaty' bits, of course it will, as they will superfically be sticking to the salary cap anyway.

The key issue is will those players stomach the paycut. There could be an awful lot of cutting to go round - and if their salary expectations don't dip, then they'll need to find the money from somewhere.
#5393
In an article in The Times this morning Own Slot suggests that the PRL investigation went beyond the co-investment issue and may have "included the club's use of image-rights payments to offshore accounts".

There is also the suggestion that certain players would be de-registered from the Premiership whilst still being registered for the Champions Cup - where there is no salary cap. Those players would also be eligible to play for their England. In effect, Saracens would have two squads.

Interesting speculation - but only speculation.
#5397
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/spor ... -pt2q0068h this one ?

I tend to agree with the points made in this article. Their behaviour has the potential for destabilising our game.
There are no grounds for appeal. What is actually happening is a procedural review.
I honestly believe PR have dotted the I's and crossed the t's with regard to the people they have used. Procedure won't be an issue - otherwise we would have had another behind closed doors decision.

I would have stuck them in a division where we don't have a salary cap for the next three years.
#5402
A38 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:25 am

There is also the suggestion that certain players would be de-registered from the Premiership whilst still being registered for the Champions Cup - where there is no salary cap. Those players would also be eligible to play for their England. In effect, Saracens would have two squads.

Interesting speculation - but only speculation.
That's a pretty grim reality. it would devalue the premiership, as the casual interest would shift to the Champions Cup.
#5407
TVM wrote:
A38 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:25 am

There is also the suggestion that certain players would be de-registered from the Premiership whilst still being registered for the Champions Cup - where there is no salary cap. Those players would also be eligible to play for their England. In effect, Saracens would have two squads.

Interesting speculation - but only speculation.
That's a pretty grim reality. it would devalue the premiership, as the casual interest would shift to the Champions Cup.
In reality its probably the only possible option as to release a player midway through the season would mean they are likely out of work for the year so legal action against the league and club for loss of bonus etc.

There could be some good players available at the end of the year. Lets hope we can get 1 or 2 at the Warriors.
#5421
Southstand(again) wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:55 am
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/spor ... -pt2q0068h this one ?

I tend to agree with the points made in this article. Their behaviour has the potential for destabilising our game.
There are no grounds for appeal. What is actually happening is a procedural review.
I honestly believe PR have dotted the I's and crossed the t's with regard to the people they have used. Procedure won't be an issue - otherwise we would have had another behind closed doors decision.

I would have stuck them in a division where we don't have a salary cap for the next three years.
How about the North London Cheats League Division One? This would be a two team league featuring the Cheats and the Cheats A team - after all their cheating has allowed them to have enough players for at least a couple of decent squads.

The two sides could play each other every week alternating as the home side in front of those of their fans who are still in denial that their club has done anything wrong at their home ground. You know the ground which is plastered with their core values of "honesty" and "humility" and where "something special" happens.
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