#43403
ale shark wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:34 pm
Brad Pitt baseball film. Oakland A’s. Very good
That's one answer, because the book was made into this film.

The alternative is that its a book by Michael Lewis (Finance / Economics journalist - look him up and read his stuff, he's brilliant; I even agreed with all his choices when he was on desert Island Discs).

In short, it discusses how the Oakland A's (small team in the big league) optimised their resources by buying players that were undervalued but would gel together. picking up players who wouldn't be headliners anywhere, but relied on them to perform their role in making a whole that was greater than it's parts.

Exactly as said above - squad players, but get the right ones as they are your key to success, and he ticks the boxes for me.

Everyone focusses on the marquee signings, but they don't really win anything for any team, get your basics right then add the flair.

If he's being played out of position or the tactics are wrong because of that, I can't see why he's getting knocked for that.
Flumpty, gerlach liked this
#43407
Flumpty wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:13 pm
Clutch wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:28 pm

We do need more money ball style players but not at full back. That’s a key position.


What's money ball / money ball style player ?

Basic premise is that managers are swayed by the star plays and put off by the unusual. Remove the emotion and look at the stats and you can find hidden gems ignored by everyone else.

An example would be a 14 with a low try-scoring rate but who is so defensively solid that nobody ever scores on his wing. Many teams would overlook him as wingers are supposed to score but the overall objective of any pro team is to win and that can be done by stopping the oppo from scoring.
#43410
It's always been my contention that some players just 'fit together' while others don't - and for whom no amount of coaching will, as it were, get it right.
I like Yareet's point about the wingers. Bristol are always said to be big spenders but I bet they picked Purdey up without costing too much. He's not top drawer but he does a decent job for them.
#43429
I don’t think moneyball works in true teamwork sports like rugby or football. Baseball (& cricket) are stats based team sports played by talented individuals, recruitment based on stats has clear merits.

Dimes was good at getting cheap/unwanted players to maximise their talent but we never won anything or followed up a good season with another good season.

No rugby teams playing five “Hammersleys” has ever won anything of note, nor will they.
#43515
ale shark wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:51 am
I don’t think moneyball works in true teamwork sports like rugby or football. Baseball (& cricket) are stats based team sports played by talented individuals, recruitment based on stats has clear merits.

Dimes was good at getting cheap/unwanted players to maximise their talent but we never won anything or followed up a good season with another good season.

No rugby teams playing five “Hammersleys” has ever won anything of note, nor will they.
Leicester City did, rather famously.

https://www.ibtimes.com/leicester-city- ... et-2377677
SSR, Yareet liked this
#43523
They were unbelievably good value players (Kante, Vardy, Mahrez) in the year that Leicester won the Premier League. But not sure that Hammersley is the football equivalent of any of those three. Maybe more equivalent to Danny Drinkwater; who was also very important for Leceister City that year and did an important job. But they wouldn't have won the league with three Danny Drinkwater types of players in their midfield. On top of that we don't really have players / enough players with equivalent potency of Vardy or incision and creativity of Mahrez or Kante.
#43607
Van Cannonball wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:52 am
I doubt any backs will be looking to leave Quins any time soon.
Don't disagree with that, on the surface, but he's only played four times since joining them, and hasn't been injured or anything - might be tempted by someone offering a starting spot

All hypothetical, anyway, as I think he's in contract
#43624
Olyy wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:25 am
Van Cannonball wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:52 am
I doubt any backs will be looking to leave Quins any time soon.
Don't disagree with that, on the surface, but he's only played four times since joining them, and hasn't been injured or anything - might be tempted by someone offering a starting spot

All hypothetical, anyway, as I think he's in contract
I think it's perfectly plausible. Understood he was on record as moving to Quins to get gametime at 15 whereas Wuss were playing him on the wing. Yet it's worked out him barely playing at all. Green was barely heard of then and now he's arguabl the best in that position in the league. But David is too good not to play week in week out too - nobody's fault but he can't be happy at all about how it's worked out.
#43645
He's a good prem standard winger, and would be a solid acquisition, don't get me wrong - but I'd have hoped if we were recruiting in the back 3 we'd look for either a higher profile player or a rising star
Last edited by Olyy on Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
#43647
ledzepsfr wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:11 am
DavenportSharky wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:42 pm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ision.html

Making enquiries about Tom O’Flaherty
In same article I was pleased that EJ has no issue with players being vaxed/un-vaxed stating that it was personal choice.
Unless we're planning on playing every test at home for the forseeable then it's a dumb stance

We're away to France this 6N, and they are very anti anti-vaxxers
Flumpty liked this
#43650
Sanderson’s sights are on O’Flaherty
The Rugby Paper23 Jan 2022
“SALE Sharks boss Alex Sanderson is on the lookout for a new winger this summer and is lining up a move for Exeter Chiefs speed merchant Tom O’Flaherty.
The 27-year-old Londoner moved to Sandy Park from the Ospreys five years ago and was a member of the Chiefs 2020 Champions Cup-winning side.
O’Flaherty has scored 32 tries in 83 games for Exeter and would join Jonny Hill in making a move to the NorthWest if the deal goes through.
Tipped for an England call-up last summer, he moved to the Chiefs after completing a degree in French at Cardiff University.“

Neil Fissler in the Rugby Paper today.
#43659
I don't thnk I've ever seen a winger whom someone didn't describe as having shaky defence. I get that defence in every position is probably more important now than it has ever been, but I would rather take a winger who can step and run around his opponents but might miss the occasional tackle, over one who makes every tackle but never beats his man. There are very few wingers operating in the higher levels of the game these days who could legitimately be called swinging doors.

Steve Hanley was one of the most impressive, exciting sights I have ever seen on a rugby pitch. His defence, since he got up close and personal with Mr Quinnell wasn't exactly rock solid.
ageinghoody liked this
#43761
Don't think there are many better wingers that won't be picked for test rugby than O'Flaherty.

Has been picked in Chiefs sides for prem and euro knock outs over each of Nowell, Hogg and Cuthbert and has an epic highlight reel.

We've got a plethora of back-three players that are sure in defence but it isn't counting for much when they are still getting outscored.
#43805
in regard to the defensive point on wingers I agree to a point. for example ben cohen when at sale ran like he was stuck in treacle but you couldnt doubt his work ethic and defensive positioning. I think that is also important a winger can get away with being a suspect tackler if they put themselves in the right position defensively. when they are weak tackling and positionally poor thats the issue.
#43810
Enough to win player of the year!! Though Cohen was caught out in defence first season. Second season was much better.

There’s always a trade off for a winger. Just need to get their weaknesses to a certain level.
#44142
Lots of Sale related rumours in the rugby paper today:

Lood --> Toulouse
Lyon chasing Rohan
Manu contract extension

Dimes trying to raid the larder, wanting to sign:
Neild,
Akker,
JL and Dan du Preez

Could definitely see Neild and Akker going there, but not the twins - think if they leave it'll be to SA or France
#44144
On current form we wouldn’t miss Lood. If Rohan could stay fit we’d miss him greatly (current tactics) and can’t help but think Manu is such a distraction. Losing the twins would be a disaster but Nield and Akker we wouldn’t even notice given their injuries. Big chunk of salary cap too as I remember Dimes gave Nield a 5 year for around 200k and he’s played a handful of games since 2016.
#44148
Manu is sadly a complete distraction. I don’t understand why both club and country pin so much hope on him. If he is picked the tactics are built around him. As soon as he is fit he is off to England. Past 30 and won’t be cheap.
Cam Neild would make sense for all concerned. His contract was pre Curry and injury and lack of selection has limited progress.
The South Africans are persuaded by issues other than rugby. Akker may well want to join his brother at Worcester.
#44155
Agree about Manu. Too injury prone and (this is probably going to be controversial) I just can't see that he makes that much impact when he does play. He certainly isn't VFM.

Wouldn't mind Lood going and I would like to see more of JPDP.

Keep the DP twins, an absolute must and I would like to keep Akker too. I think we miss his short-range power.
#44156
JP already signed for Glasgow, so we don't have much time with him left

I think if we kept Akker we'd lose Ashman - Langdon and Taylor both in contract, Akker and Ashman out,
Think Ashman will look north of the border if we were going to head into next season with four senior hookers again
Hopefully him starting so much, even with Taylor and Langdon now available again, is giving him the vote of confidence though
#44159
Let Akker go, get Ashman locked in on a good length contract.

Lood, can deal with him going but we need another lock brought in. Especially as I think JLDPs future at Sale will be at 6.

Can’t see the Du Preez boys leaving but if they did, would require a huge amount of back row investment.

Van Rensburg / Tuilagi always a conundrum, especially as you have Hill in the background still tied into a contract. I expect Manu brings a massive amount to the club outside of his playing ability. He’s also a draw for fans. I think that when he is fit, he offers a lot, just not necessarily the bursting runs we saw when he was younger. He’s a more intelligent rugby player than Rohan, however Rohan’s form has improved of late.

I find it very difficult to work out who should stay and who should go without knowing how much they are actually paid!
#44302
I had no idea that Neild was on that sort of money! Would be tempting to say that he should be moved on to free that up but not sure how long Jono Ross has left at this level so probably on balance still makes sense to keep Neild as a ready replacement for Ross. (checked Ross's age on wikipedia to find that their picture of him is actually Marc Jones - who doesn't have a picture on his own wiki page :doh: )

I think the following players won't be renewed whenever it is that their contracts are up:
.Ouesthuizen (Harper coming through and there's got to be better value at tighthead out there. Wouldn't be against us picking Ciaran Parker back up - that we let him go and kept Flynn for so long always seemed the wrong way around to me [even though I know they play different sides].)
.Akker (Langdon and Ashman are the future and for all his qualities in the loose he primarily needs to consistently hit the lineout jumpers and he really struggles with that - I remember Ben Kay in commentary almost being reduced to laughter at the arc of some of his throws in the last 12 months or so)
.Lood (what a player but still not vfm at the moment)
.Posth (has his chances, hasn't really kicked on)
.Phillips (presume it's pretty much the end of his days in the prem - has been a great signing for us)
.Cliff (classy operator in his way but I don't think he's physically up to the prem in more than 30 minute bursts anymore - Thomas and Warr are the future behind Raffi)
.Faf (vfm issue and Raffi is the future)
. Manu (vfm - Leicester letting him go looks like very good business now)
.McGuigan and Yarde (have been fantastic for us but we need more threatening attackers than either of them are at the moment)
.Hammersley (has his qualities but those aren't what we need to move forward).

Shopping list is the very best we can afford at tighthead, second row and winger plus fullback or outside centre (all of which will need to be likely more available than Faf and Lood have been). Academy graduates and current fringe players should look after the rest.
#44367
If we lose Lood AND/OR Faf, then we aren’t saving money from the cap, we are just losing either one or both marquee players.

My view would be we have to retain one, as I can’t see us having identified and targeted the exact right player to spend very big on. Now we have the rule being only one marquee, as well as a lower salary cap, I expect we would us 120-150% of one of the current Marquee players salaries to fund a big name either at 3/15
#44368
Doesn't the new salary cap rule bite on marquee players when their contract (agreed before the rule change came into place - not subsequently extended or rolled etc) expires or otherwise comes to an end? So we're down to one having one marquee contract available whatever we do with Faf and Lood at each of their next break points (which is the time that I've referred to them as likely to leave - not before).

Would seem odd to give the marquee contract to a 9 when we've got one of the best in the country anyway. But neither can see how it's right to give it to a lock that is currently costing between 50-100k per match (that's about 2.5x more expensive than Radrada and Pietau even though they are reportedly on double Lood's salary). I don't see how we can justify either of them being a marquee player when their next renewal comes up
#44369
I wonder what Faf's going to do. He's been huge for Sale but maybe it's the right time to part ways? He's said that his partner can't work over here in her chosen field and with the emergence of Raffi, maybe going to Japan for a big payday is a good outcome? Those rumours were pretty persistent earlier in the season but seem to quietened down. @RugbyMarvel makes a good point in that if he and Lood were to leave, we wouldn't actually be saving on the salary cap. But given the lack of rumoured signings that could be considered 'marquee' maybe they are staying? Or at least one is.
I agree with most of @Elgar's choices for departures.
Ooist is a definite and Akker just seems to make sense. With three good options at hooker, and Dimes joining his brother Duhan at Wuss, it seems a perfect fit. Hill has been a huge disappointment and Doherty has looked genuinely better so that's a no-brainer and Phillips is surely going to retire/move on.
I've said it time and time again that RDP is just too error-strewn for a side that has top 4 ambitions, but if he has to stay to mean the twins do, he can be a utility man in the backline. Although Ross has shown signs of improvement recently, if the Exeter rumours are true I'd possibly be letting him move on as well. Clean slate, and all that. Neild is in contract so can cover Jono's place in the squad. Hammersley is in contract so no point discussing that.
I suppose we have to remember that the salary cap is being cut by a fair amount, so more outgoings than incomings is somewhat inevitable.
Elgar liked this
#44372
If nield is on big ish money then that needs sorting. I want him around but he is injury prone. Though back row I don’t think has many jets coming up. U18 6 looks useful but he’s a way off being first team.

I think we need to identify the right position for the marque and get our man. Even if that means having non for a year.

Tough choice as to the right position. 15 sure, but James doing well and Carpenter has a huge rep. Winger possibly but Reed and Roebuck emerging and O Flaherty rumoured.
Stil think centre is where we are light. 3 injury prone 12s. A 13 in not great form, a 10 shoe horned in. Plus Doherty who is promising but relatively unproven.
#44374
Think Manu is eligible to be our Marquee from next season, so will presumably go to him by default, as our (presumed) highest eligible earner (if Lood/Faf leave, and we don't sign any on mega wedge, obv)
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