[Lord Elpus]

The Oz 15 beat all the England players at least 3 times. Oz 3rd try was defo in touch. Slade must go. No turnovers after Tom went off. Ben Curry better than ben Earl.

[Bucks1861]

An interesting quote

“ We had one of the world’s best defence coaches and after a handful of games he left because he couldn’t work under Borthwick.

How many games does he need to demonstrate that he hasn’t a clue what he’s doing.”

Not saying I agree as I’m not privy to access of that inner circle and I may be wrong; but has England now lost five of the last six?

Also as for next week against the Boks!! OMG.

[Olyy]

Yup, we're lucky we added in that Japan game before the NZ tour
We're 6 - 4 on the year, there's a possibility we could end 8 - 4 (though Japan look pretty poor, so I think we'll beat them)

[Olyy]

Roebuck back in the main squad, replacing the injured IFW
Ted Hill called up for Tom

[Olyy]

No Asher in the A squad update today - very surprised at that, guessing cause he'll be a "traveling" reserve the day before?

Tom Burrow has been called up to train with the squad, though not officially part of it so not in contention to play - will be good experience for him

[Yareet]

No Asher in the A squad update today - very surprised at that, guessing cause he'll be a "traveling" reserve the day before?

Tom Burrow has been called up to train with the squad, though not officially part of it so not in contention to play - will be good experience for him

If there are only 3 LHs in the squad, he’d have to be be travelling reserve. Baxter pulls up in the warmup and somebody has to cover 1.

[Yareet]

Telegraph podcast suggests Asher should play against SA (replacing Baxter as Asher is the better scrummager) with Davidson. They also have Asher as a strong bolter for the plane to Oz next Summer.

[Lord Elpus]

I hoped Asher would be used v Japan. The bomb squad might be a tad too far for him as he's not particularly big.

[Dave L]

Telegraph podcast suggests Asher should play against SA (replacing Baxter as Asher is the better scrummager) with Davidson. They also have Asher as a strong bolter for the plane to Oz next Summer.

I listened to this and laughed out loud when Charlie Morgan (I think) offered this opinion.

The Asher hype train is now careering out of control. He's a promising young player who is still very raw. He hasn't even played a full season of domestic rugby as a starter. Let alone the potential problems with club/country schism over his best position.

As a Sale fan I feel strangely protective of him. Just let him develop naturally before placing these huge burdens on him. Despite how well he's done, we've seen that in the scrum he can still be given a proper schooling by established Premiership journeymen.

[Yareet]

I hoped Asher would be used v Fiji. The bomb squad might be a tad too far for him as he's not particularly big.

You want Asher to play for Spain?




England's tier 2 oppo are Japan

[Olyy]

As a Sale fan I feel strangely protective of him. Just let him develop naturally before placing these huge burdens on him. Despite how well he's done, we've seen that in the scrum he can still be given a proper schooling by established Premiership journeymen.

I remember reading an article, possibly by Dave Flatman?, about the development of young front rowers and how too much too young can be very detrimental to their careers as their bodies aren't mature enough to handle the stresses that scrummaging puts into their frame
As much as it looks like he has the talent to be a starter already I do hope we manage his minutes more once Sharky and/or WGJ are back

[RinTin]

As a Sale fan I feel strangely protective of him. Just let him develop naturally before placing these huge burdens on him. Despite how well he's done, we've seen that in the scrum he can still be given a proper schooling by established Premiership journeymen.

As much as it looks like he has the talent to be a starter already I do hope we manage his minutes more once Sharky and/or WGJ are back

This is the elephant in the room still - loosehead or tighthead. I don't mind him getting exposure against Japan for example, but I hate that his position is being changed. I agree re being strangely protective as he is getting pulled in different directions by coaches.

I have no faith in Borthwick (and his coaching teams) ability to make sensible, rational choices. That concerns me with regards to Asher and his development.

[Yareet]

As a Sale fan I feel strangely protective of him. Just let him develop naturally before placing these huge burdens on him. Despite how well he's done, we've seen that in the scrum he can still be given a proper schooling by established Premiership journeymen.

As much as it looks like he has the talent to be a starter already I do hope we manage his minutes more once Sharky and/or WGJ are back

This is the elephant in the room still - loosehead or tighthead. I don't mind him getting exposure against Japan for example, but I hate that his position is being changed. I agree re being strangely protective as he is getting pulled in different directions by coaches.

I have no faith in Borthwick (and his coaching teams) ability to make sensible, rational choices. That concerns me with regards to Asher and his development.

Massive name drop but I was at a lunch with Jason Leonard last week and realised that he is probably pretty well placed to answer the question.

Leonard was firmly of the opinion that Asher should play at 1 with the bigger boys like Fasogbon should be at 3.

[RinTin]

As much as it looks like he has the talent to be a starter already I do hope we manage his minutes more once Sharky and/or WGJ are back

This is the elephant in the room still - loosehead or tighthead. I don't mind him getting exposure against Japan for example, but I hate that his position is being changed. I agree re being strangely protective as he is getting pulled in different directions by coaches.

I have no faith in Borthwick (and his coaching teams) ability to make sensible, rational choices. That concerns me with regards to Asher and his development.

Massive name drop but I was at a lunch with Jason Leonard last week and realised that he is probably pretty well placed to answer the question.

Leonard was firmly of the opinion that Asher should play at 1 with the bigger boys like Fasogbon should be at 3.

I would pay good money to attend a lunch with the fun bus.

Well there you go, debate sorted. Buggers my thoughts on the long term Sale front row of Bevan, Jibutu and Asher.

[poyntonshark]

I can't remember whether I read or viewed a piece on England Front Row. It suggested that even though the England coaches currently prefer Asher at 1 (reading between the lines because of the presence of a couple of bigger boys and a lack of real talent at 1) they have not discarded the possibility that he will later be preferred at 3. It is statistically unlikely that the current crop of youngsters will all reach maturity in the game, for a variety of reasons. Any player is much less likely to be overused by the national setup than he is by his club. Asher's current position with both is seemingly born out of necessity, I'm confident he is being well monitored.

[RinTin]

Looking at the Bok line up I'd fancy Asher to against Wilco Louw.

[Olyy]

LCD, Ford and Roebuck on the bench

No room for Ben Curry with Dombrandt somehow maintaining his spot, and Underhill starting

[Surbiton_Shark]

LCD, Ford and Roebuck on the bench

No room for Ben Curry with Dombrandt somehow maintaining his spot, and Underhill starting

Ok.....it's now beyond a joke. I had quite a bit of faith in Borthwick and willing to give him a chance, I really thought we would do well this Autumn. How on earth....on earth....Dombrandt retains his place on the bench is utterly beyond me. Why on earth would you not replace Tom with an identical copy.

Feel for Spencer......seems to be the fall guy here.

[Olyy]

Reed starting for Scotland vs Portugal,

Should get a hatful

[RinTin]

Asher has been released to join up with the A's squad.

I expect he and Fasogbon to be at 1 and 3.

[ageinghoody]

Steward and van Poortvliet suggests a kickfest to me.

[ale shark]

England should just put Borthwick and his chums on gardening leave and let some AI bots run the squad. I’ve pretty much stopped watching England now, 3mins on YouTube on Sunday morning will save me a load of grief. SA by +20

[RinTin]

Steward and van Poortvliet suggests a kickfest to me.

Agree. Also suggests to me Borthwick is not anticipating much front foot ball to actually play with. Fills me with optimism.....

[Bucks1861]

England Men A side to face Australia A (includes current club and senior caps)


15 Joe Carpenter (Sale Sharks)
14 Cadan Murley (Harlequins)
13 Oscar Beard (Harlequins)
12 Fraser Dingwall (c) (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
11 Gabriel Ibitoye (Bristol Bears)
10 Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)
9 Will Porter (Harlequins)
1 Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks)
2 Gabriel Oghre (Bristol Bears)
3 Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)
4 Hugh Tizard (Saracens)
5 Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
7 Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints)
8 Tom Willis (Saracens, 1 cap)

Replacements
16 Curtis Langdon (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
17 Emmanuel Iyogun (Northampton Saints)
18 Afolabi Fasogbon (Gloucester Rugby)
19 Rusi Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)
20 Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)
21 Archie McParland (Northampton Saints)
22 Jamie Shillcock (Leicester Tigers)
23 Will Muir (Bath Rugby)


Congrats to our two boys.

[Beardedshark]

Is the A game on tv?

[Yareet]

Is the A game on tv?

Premier Sports



So 3 people will see it

[Bucks1861]

This has been already covered in previous post

It’s in RugbyPass TV. Use the app.

[Olyy]

Quiet first half from Reed but then two tries in 3mins in the second to remind people he's got wheels

[Lord Elpus]

Portugal t-h prop Diogo Ferreira ootp as is/was Portugal coach Simon Mannix

[Yareet]

This has been already covered in previous post

It’s in RugbyPass TV. Use the app.

Can’t find anything on the RugbyPass site. Mind you there’s nowt on the Prem Sport rugby schedule either.

[Lord Elpus]

It's on Stan Sports in Oz (lucky Poynters) - so it might be on the Russki Sofa

[poyntonshark]

Not lucky for me. Stan Sports tried to steal from me a few years ago. I do not partake of any of their services.

[Olyy]

Reed starting at 15 for Scotland A this weekend vs Chile!

[Bucks1861]

A view

“Six England A players who could make a difference for Steve Borthwick”

https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1252162444?-18550:3641




Joe Carpenter

Remaining in the back three, Carpenter reinforced his promise as a sparky attacker. England’s No 15 shirt is currently bouncing between Freddie Steward and George Furbank. The former is viewed as the aerial specialist, the latter a more proficient attacker. Stay fit, and Carpenter could prove to be an explosive alternative who combines aspects of what Furbank and Steward offer respectively.

[Lord Elpus]

For me Carpenter is like Furbank. Flashy in attack but missing in defence.

[ale shark]

Steward was missing in defence at the weekend and offers nothing in attack. His continued selection shows why Borthwick, his mate from uni and Canada’s kicking coach are unfit for the job. I’d rather have Warren Gatland.

[Bucks1861]

Steward was missing in defence at the weekend and offers nothing in attack. His continued selection shows why Borthwick, his mate from uni and Canada’s kicking coach are unfit for the job. I’d rather have Warren Gatland.

Wow! OMG - Gatland!!

Whilst I’m no fan of Borthwick, unless England can find someone who’s a material improvement I can’t see why we’d pay off the remainder of his five year contract.

However, I wonder if we are good enough to even beat Japan this weekend.

His position may become untenable at the end of the 6N though if we loose to France, Ireland, and Scotland.

[Lord Elpus]

Steward isn't missing in defence - he's there but so slow attackers walk around him.

[Yareet]

Steward was missing in defence at the weekend and offers nothing in attack. His continued selection shows why Borthwick, his mate from uni and Canada’s kicking coach are unfit for the job. I’d rather have Warren Gatland.

Wow! OMG - Gatland!!

Whilst I’m no fan of Borthwick, unless England can find someone who’s a material improvement I can’t see why we’d pay off the remainder of his five year contract.

However, I wonder if we are good enough to even beat Japan this weekend.

His position may become untenable at the end of the 6N though if we loose to France, Ireland, and Scotland.

Jeez the hyperbole

We've played two of the world's top three teams and lost by a missed kick v NZ and by 9pts v SA. Obviously we're suddenly losing to a team ranked 13th (two below Wales) who we put 50 points on 4 months ago .

[Olyy]

Tom Curry recalled to the squad after concussion stand down (don't think he technically ever left, but he's up for selection again)

[RinTin]

I'm hoping no sweeping changes for this weekend. Maybe try a new 12 such as Northmore inside Lawrence given Slade's time has likely run out?

The team needs a win and it, broadly speaking, needs to be the same team that has been knocked in the last few weeks. They need this as players.

[Olyy]

I wanna see CCS at 8 and Fin Smith at 10 (or at the very least at 22)
Hoping Roebuck gets a start - would quite like to see Freeman at 13 to accommodate

Also would like to see Davidson in the 23, he's been really good for Saints and Cole looks to have finally crested the hill and be on a downslide now

[ale shark]

Hyperbole maybe but the fact that Dombrandt played in all 3 games tells you everything you need to know about Borthwick’s suitability for the role.

[Flumpty]

Tom Curry recalled to the squad after concussion stand down (don't think he technically ever left, but he's up for selection again)

Flumpty Jnr and I are having an Away Day to that there London and we've got our fingers crossed for a Double Curry on Sunday.

[poyntonshark]

For me Carpenter is like Furbank. Flashy in attack but missing in defence.

I get the point but I think it is a little unfair. Carps is physically capable in defence, but he too often either doesn't trust those around him or overtrusts himself. He cuts in to make tackles that someone else is in a position to make, or flies out of defence to catch/intercept balls that he has no chance of getting anywhere near.

[Lord Elpus]

I also prefer to have a fb with a long touch kick - especially when neither winger has a decent boot. Carpenter isn't a great kicker - and Furbank has kicked goals when required for Stains.

[SSR]

Billy Whizz did not have much of a kicking game, but history showed his other talents more than compensated.

[Lord Elpus]

Billy Whizz did not have much of a kicking game, but history showed his other talents more than compensated.

.....and both Frank & Stan had decent boots on them.

[Olyy]

Waisea starting for, and captaining, Fiji vs Ireland

[Bucks1861]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... inst-japan

“England plan debut for Asher Opoku-Fordjour, the 20-year-old next-gen prop


Sale Sharks front row who can play on either side of the scrum is likely to be deployed as a loosehead by Steve Borthwick. “