By exileneal
#71652
Call-ups for:

Rodd,
LCD,
Opoku-Fordjour,
Curry B,
Curry T,
Ford, and,
Roebuck.

Congratulations to all and hoping to see an all Sale front-row at some point in the tournament!
Bucks1861, Olyy, RinTin liked this
By Olyy
#71653
Congrats to all! That's quite a haul

Had hoped we might've seen Carpenter in there, as Furbank and Hendy are both out, but I can understand them wanting the experience of Daly, even if I'm not a fan of his - realistically it's going to be Steward starting and Marcus Smith 2nd choice, based on Borthwick's previous picks

Zero inside centres in the squad is very frustrating, especially with Atkinson and Ojomoh playing very well for their clubs - when will England learn that shoehorning players out of position doesn't work?
Presumably they're going to play Slade there and he's been playing 10 all season for Chiefs!
RinTin liked this
By RinTin
#71656
Big news for me is Itoje now captaining. I feel he has been prepped for the role for a long time. George's days may be numbered, or this could allow him to find his best form again.

Asher named as a tighthead which is reassuring.

Fraser Dingwall is a pretty handy 12 and plays there 1 of every 3 games it seems. I wouldn't mind him and Lawrence. Would have liked Northmore though. Just leave Ollie at 13 please.

Is Alex Dombrandt holding Borthwick's cat hostage? Inclusion is odd given we have Earl and Willis in the squad.
By RinTin
#71657
Rehab list:

Afolabi Fasogbon (Gloucester Rugby), Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs), George Furbank (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Bristol Bears), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Luke Northmore (Harlequins), and Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby).

Raffi not there I suppose means he's fit and back with us for Sunday. Shame that he gets picked in the rehab list time after time, but once fit doesn't get a spot in the 36.
By Olyy
#71658
Probably better for him to sit this one out and get more game time for us, hope for the summer when Mitchell will likely be with the Lions
Think he could easily take Randall's place in the squad if he can string more than two games in a row together
User avatar
By Yareet
#71659
Olyy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:11 pm
Probably better for him to sit this one out and get more game time for us, hope for the summer when Mitchell will likely be with the Lions
Think he could easily take Randall's place in the squad if he can string more than two games in a row together

There’s an England A game next month v Ireland. If he’s fit, Raffi could be in that
Olyy liked this
By Olyy
#71660
Yareet wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:36 pm
Olyy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:11 pm
Probably better for him to sit this one out and get more game time for us, hope for the summer when Mitchell will likely be with the Lions
Think he could easily take Randall's place in the squad if he can string more than two games in a row together

There’s an England A game next month v Ireland. If he’s fit, Raffi could be in that
Completely forgot about that!

Going to be interesting to see who plays in that game considering there's injuries concentrated in a few positions in EQP players
Good chance Bamber, Raffi and Carpenter are all involved - if Asher doesn't force his way into the senior 23 then he could drop down and play too
By RugbyMarvel
#71669
Congrats to the lads. Great to see it.

Shame for Raffi and Carps. Not quite enough time for Raffi and Carps has struggled last couple of matches which won’t have helped.

Will be a very difficult match up against Bath now.

I anticipate:

McIntyre / McElroy / John
Hill (Andrew’s if injured) / Van Rhyn
JLDP / DDP / Dugdale
Warr / RDP
Bedlow / L James
Reed / Carps / O’Flaherty

Caine / Onasanya / Harper / Beaumont / Bamber / Birch / Thomas / Curtis


When you put that side against Bath with the likes of Obano, Du Toit, Ewels, Reid, Pepper, Barbeary, Spencer, Russell, Ojomoh, Cokanasiga etc, feels like it could be a tough day
User avatar
By Yareet
#71674
RugbyMarvel wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:08 pm
Congrats to the lads. Great to see it.

Shame for Raffi and Carps. Not quite enough time for Raffi and Carps has struggled last couple of matches which won’t have helped.

Will be a very difficult match up against Bath now.

I anticipate:

McIntyre / McElroy / John
Hill (Andrew’s if injured) / Van Rhyn
JLDP / DDP / Dugdale
Warr / RDP
Bedlow / L James
Reed / Carps / O’Flaherty

Caine / Onasanya / Harper / Beaumont / Bamber / Birch / Thomas / Curtis


When you put that side against Bath with the likes of Obano, Du Toit, Ewels, Reid, Pepper, Barbeary, Spencer, Russell, Ojomoh, Cokanasiga etc, feels like it could be a tough day
Don’t disagree with your team but I think it only just hits the 15 EQP threshold. And that’s if Hill plays.
By RugbyMarvel
#71676
Yareet wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:49 pm
RugbyMarvel wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:08 pm
Congrats to the lads. Great to see it.

Shame for Raffi and Carps. Not quite enough time for Raffi and Carps has struggled last couple of matches which won’t have helped.

Will be a very difficult match up against Bath now.

I anticipate:

McIntyre / McElroy / John
Hill (Andrew’s if injured) / Van Rhyn
JLDP / DDP / Dugdale
Warr / RDP
Bedlow / L James
Reed / Carps / O’Flaherty

Caine / Onasanya / Harper / Beaumont / Bamber / Birch / Thomas / Curtis


When you put that side against Bath with the likes of Obano, Du Toit, Ewels, Reid, Pepper, Barbeary, Spencer, Russell, Ojomoh, Cokanasiga etc, feels like it could be a tough day
Don’t disagree with your team but I think it only just hits the 15 EQP threshold. And that’s if Hill plays.
Raffi would replace Warr as said below but you would expect Warr to be on the bench then so no change.

If Hill missing, then you put Andrew’s in there, Raffi at 9 and Thomas stays on the bench.

Forgive me, but I don’t know, do we have to hit 15 a game or is it an average across the year?
User avatar
By Yareet
#71678
RugbyMarvel wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:56 pm
Yareet wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:49 pm
RugbyMarvel wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:08 pm
Congrats to the lads. Great to see it.

Shame for Raffi and Carps. Not quite enough time for Raffi and Carps has struggled last couple of matches which won’t have helped.

Will be a very difficult match up against Bath now.

I anticipate:

McIntyre / McElroy / John
Hill (Andrew’s if injured) / Van Rhyn
JLDP / DDP / Dugdale
Warr / RDP
Bedlow / L James
Reed / Carps / O’Flaherty

Caine / Onasanya / Harper / Beaumont / Bamber / Birch / Thomas / Curtis


When you put that side against Bath with the likes of Obano, Du Toit, Ewels, Reid, Pepper, Barbeary, Spencer, Russell, Ojomoh, Cokanasiga etc, feels like it could be a tough day
Don’t disagree with your team but I think it only just hits the 15 EQP threshold. And that’s if Hill plays.
Raffi would replace Warr as said below but you would expect Warr to be on the bench then so no change.

If Hill missing, then you put Andrew’s in there, Raffi at 9 and Thomas stays on the bench.

Forgive me, but I don’t know, do we have to hit 15 a game or is it an average across the year?
I must be honest that I thought it was per match but it seems to be in game blocks

https://www.ruck.co.uk/statement-premie ... -failures/
By Olyy
#71679
Averaged across half the season - they check at the mid point of the season, and at the end, and dole out a fine at each point for sides who haven't hit the mark


Even if Raffi does start I can't see Warr being dropped from the 23, more likely to be Thomas
Could be that we're enough over the 15 that one game doesn't hurt us - not sure what we're averaging atm


Edit: actually we're only one game into this half and we put out 16 vs Gloucester, so a 15 or 14 EQP game still has us on track
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By Olyy
#71797
Raffi called up!
Along with: Curtis Langdon (finally!), Arthur Clark, Ben Spencer and Henry Pollock

Alex Coles, Jack van Poortliet, Alex Dombrandt, Jamie George and Alex Mitchell all injured (Mitchell staying in camp to rehab so hopefully not too bad)
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User avatar
By SSR
#71798
Do we have any of the England boys back for Bath ? Sorry if that is a dumb question, but I
am losing track of all the changes wrt to Europe/Six Nations tournaments. Nice to have
players selected for international honours but it hurts us disproportionally wrt small squad.
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By Olyy
#71799
Nope, no England players

Last year they did release one or two from the first week of camp, that were low on game time, to play for their clubs but this camp is in Girona so I doubt it'll happen this time round
User avatar
By SSR
#71802
Do we have a competent back up front row , when our starting front row are away. The
bench front row becomes starters, but who do we have fit and able for the bench?
User avatar
By Yareet
#71804
SSR wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:26 am
Do we have a competent back up front row , when our starting front row are away. The
bench front row becomes starters, but who do we have fit and able for the bench?
WGJ should be around this weekend. Only the England players are gone I think. Must be honest though that I've lost track who's injured. In theory...

SiMac
Tadgh
WGJ

Harrison
Caine
Harper

is OK but are they all fit?
By Olyy
#71805
SSR wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:26 am
Do we have a competent back up front row , when our starting front row are away. The
bench front row becomes starters, but who do we have fit and able for the bench?
Presumably for Bath it'll be
McIntyre, Caine, WGJ
Onasanya, McElroy, Harper

If WGJ is retained by Wales during the 6N (don't think they're under any obligation to release players back to their clubs during an international period, only on rest weeks) then....Patreece Bell?

Imagine we'd need to recall Tye Ramont from the u20s, as well, as we'd need cover in case someone pulls a hammy during match day warmup
By exileneal
#71806
Olyy wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:06 am
Nope, no England players

Last year they did release one or two from the first week of camp, that were low on game time, to play for their clubs but this camp is in Girona so I doubt it'll happen this time round
TBF when Slade was released to get some game time for Exeter before the Autumn Internationals it was whilst England were in camp in Spain (I remember a throwaway jokey line in an article or a podcast at the time saying he missed out on the team trip to watch Barcelona play a Champions League game as a result).

Obviously that was special circumstances given he was just back from injury and England wanted him to get some yards in the legs before chucking him into the game against the All Blacks.

I would imagine that this time England will want to keep all players in cotton wool this weekend. Can’t think of any players that desperately need game time having just come back from injury.
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User avatar
By Major Bloodnok
#71807
Olyy wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:16 am
Raffi called up!
Along with: Curtis Langdon (finally!), Arthur Clark, Ben Spencer and Henry Pollock

Alex Coles, Jack van Poortliet, Alex Dombrandt, Jamie George and Alex Mitchell all injured (Mitchell staying in camp to rehab so hopefully not too bad)
There is a God...
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User avatar
By Yareet
#71808
Major Bloodnok wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:07 am
Olyy wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:16 am
Raffi called up!
Along with: Curtis Langdon (finally!), Arthur Clark, Ben Spencer and Henry Pollock

Alex Coles, Jack van Poortliet, Alex Dombrandt, Jamie George and Alex Mitchell all injured (Mitchell staying in camp to rehab so hopefully not too bad)
There is a God...
Oof @Major Bloodnok, that's a little much. We may not think a player has what it takes but I'm not sure we should be glad anyone's injured.
By RinTin
#71809
Time to accept that it will be Warr/ RDP 9/10 this weekend. It's happening, just deal with it.

We should still be able to put a pretty mighty pack together with Hill, Andrews, Bamber, EVR, JLDP, Dugdale and DDP available. Front row isn't bad as we can start Mcintyre, Mcilroy and WGJ. Looking forward to seeing Tumy hopefully get a run.

Backline wise, give RMW and LJ a go at 12 and 13. Flats and Reed outside with Carpenter at 15.

It's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world.
User avatar
By Yareet
#71810
RinTin wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 1:54 pm
Time to accept that it will be Warr/ RDP 9/10 this weekend. It's happening, just deal with it.

We should still be able to put a pretty mighty pack together with Hill, Andrews, Bamber, EVR, JLDP, Dugdale and DDP available. Front row isn't bad as we can start Mcintyre, Mcilroy and WGJ. Looking forward to seeing Tumy hopefully get a run.

Backline wise, give RMW and LJ a go at 12 and 13. Flats and Reed outside with Carpenter at 15.

It's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world.
Aren't they both 12s really? If only we had an experienced 13 knocking around who could bring some seniority to that backline. Maybe an international captain :angry:
By RinTin
#71811
RMW has played 13 for Caldy all season so could do it, but played very well at 12 last week and needs some consistency in his life.

Luke can do both and, personally, I feel fits out game plan better having a ball playing 13. He's a very under rated defender as well so I think he will be a better defensive leader from 13 and would cover wider channels better.

Basically I would like to see this combination. No other 13's to pick from really unless Curtis comes in at 10 and RDP stays there.
By Olyy
#71812
Wouldn't mind seeing Addison back at 13 tbh, if Rob has to go to 10, he looked decent there early doors

Considering how mish-mash the side is going to be i'd rather an experienced 13 defending there than a 12 - leave Luke and RMW to compete for the 12 shirt
By RinTin
#71820
JVP and Jamie George both almost guaranteed to miss the Ireland game according to reports. Mitchell dead leg only so should be fine.

LCD into start I'd imagine given his experience, and potentially a Mr R Quirke on the bench depending on what Steve wants from his back up 9.
By Evo
#71821
Based on Sunday and warm up
Our backline could look something like
Warr/RDP
Bedlow/RMW
TOF/Carps/Reed

or

Warr/Curtis
RMW/RDP
TOF/Carps/WA.....if Reed/TOF can't play on different wings to their preferred wing.
By Olyy
#71822
Really tough call to make on the 10/12/13

If we hadn't lost Raffi to England I'd be inclined to start Curtis again, despite the horror show last time out

Warr/Rob have had some really good games at 9/10 before but that was when both were on form and had had time to gel, neither of which are true atm

I'd feel better about about Rob at 10 if we had Addison to go to 13 - they always say 13 is the hardest channel to defend, don't know how I feel about LJ or RMW there

Maybe they really push the boat out and play Waisea! :dizzy:

Rob/LJ/Waisea start,
Curtis/Bedlow, RMW bench?

Don't envy the selectors
By Evo
#71823
Are we sure LJ is fit......why didn't play against Toulon if he was?

Assume there will be some loyalty to the squad that defeated Toulon?
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By Olyy
#71824
Good question

Hopefully we get a Kieran Crichard article this week with injury updates in, now that the Prem is back (I think they're Prem press days?)
By RinTin
#71825
One final game for Waisea to remind everyone how good he can be? Chance to put himself on the shopping lists of some clubs if he goes well. Works for all involved actually. Good shout.
User avatar
By Major Bloodnok
#71830
Yareet wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 12:13 pm
Major Bloodnok wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:07 am
Olyy wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:16 am
Raffi called up!
Along with: Curtis Langdon (finally!), Arthur Clark, Ben Spencer and Henry Pollock

Alex Coles, Jack van Poortliet, Alex Dombrandt, Jamie George and Alex Mitchell all injured (Mitchell staying in camp to rehab so hopefully not too bad)
There is a God...
Oof @Major Bloodnok, that's a little much. We may not think a player has what it takes but I'm not sure we should be glad anyone's injured.
Sorry. That came across badly. It was more that I don't think he's worth a place in the squad. No, I don't want him injured, just playing for Quins not England.
Yareet liked this
By Surbiton_Shark
#71839
ejndavid95 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:57 pm
Our reward for providing 8 England players...?

Losing 8 nailed on starters for the game vs Bath this weekend even though there's no England game.

The RFU, everybody.

Oh come on - we have a hugely congested fixture list with all the teams in the Prem league!!.....what on a minute......no we don't at all.........

Can't make it up really - what a way to support the clubs from the RFU - take away the key players that supporters want to see
User avatar
By Yareet
#71840
Surbiton_Shark wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:20 pm
ejndavid95 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:57 pm
Our reward for providing 8 England players...?

Losing 8 nailed on starters for the game vs Bath this weekend even though there's no England game.

The RFU, everybody.

Oh come on - we have a hugely congested fixture list with all the teams in the Prem league!!.....what on a minute......no we don't at all.........

Can't make it up really - what a way to support the clubs from the RFU - take away the key players that supporters want to see
I do wonder if next season there won't be this issue. We've only had 10 teams for the 2023/4 and 2024/5 season. The first was shortened by the World Cup; the second by the Lions.

2025/6 could be a more normal season.

However, we still need to get in 20 Prem rounds, 8 European, 8 6N (with a camp at the beginning and 2 fallow weeks) and 4-5 AIs (including a camp at the beginning).

That's potentially 41 weeks to fit in before the squad leaves for the July tour in mid-June. I think that just about works with a start in early September.
By exileneal
#71842
Yareet wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 3:05 pm
Surbiton_Shark wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:20 pm
ejndavid95 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:57 pm
Our reward for providing 8 England players...?

Losing 8 nailed on starters for the game vs Bath this weekend even though there's no England game.

The RFU, everybody.

Oh come on - we have a hugely congested fixture list with all the teams in the Prem league!!.....what on a minute......no we don't at all.........

Can't make it up really - what a way to support the clubs from the RFU - take away the key players that supporters want to see
I do wonder if next season there won't be this issue. We've only had 10 teams for the 2023/4 and 2024/5 season. The first was shortened by the World Cup; the second by the Lions.

2025/6 could be a more normal season.

However, we still need to get in 20 Prem rounds, 8 European, 8 6N (with a camp at the beginning and 2 fallow weeks) and 4-5 AIs (including a camp at the beginning).

That's potentially 41 weeks to fit in before the squad leaves for the July tour in mid-June. I think that just about works with a start in early September.
I think that in a year or two the 6N is changing to have only one fallow week? But not sure it buys any time in terms of fixture congestion relief as I think it is aligned to the new international tournament where the summer and autumn tests will be contributing to a global competition which may mean the tours need more time than the current arrangements? Will differ to someone better informed (or at the very least with a better memory!) on this one!
By exileneal
#71843
ejndavid95 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:57 pm
Our reward for providing 8 England players...?

Losing 8 nailed on starters for the game vs Bath this weekend even though there's no England game.

The RFU, everybody.
The counter-argument is that the clubs know what they signed up for in the latest RFU-Club partnership deal and the concessions they would need to make in order to receive the cash they needed to survive. And yet the league arranged fixtures in these weeks. You could just as easily therefore say “Arranging meaningful games when the best players are not around. Premiership Rugby, everybody.”

Of course that would not be fair when the league is doing what it needs to do for its stakeholders, fitting in eighteen games as best it can around ERCC, Internationals and the off-season. But on the other hand the RFU is doing the same for itself and its aims of giving England the best chance in the 6N as possible. And at the end of the day money talks and international rugby pays the bills of club rugby everywhere in Europe except France.

Of course the clubs would say without us producing players you would have no international team. And the unions would say without our international teams you wouldn’t have the cash to keep your players away from France. And so on and so forth…

As much as the Sale fan in me doesn’t like all the unavailability, the England fan in me is glad Ted Hill and Tom Curry won’t be knocking seven bells out of each other this weekend. And come next weekend I’ll be annoyed Jack Willis isn’t available to play for England because, as a concession to the premiership clubs who would otherwise struggle to retain the very best talent, England won’t pick players based overseas. But at the same time the Sale fan in me will be glad of that rule because I reckon Ford would be plying his trade in France somewhere next year otherwise.

They do say a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy and the Sale and England fan parts in me are both always unhappy about some element of the club vs country agreement. :lol
By The Back Row
#71846
The key part of the above thread for me is the concept of "Fitting in" Premiership fixtures.

Step back several years and the Premiership was a constant and teams would build with that in mind, knowing they were losing players to the Internationals, and the odd off weeks for European rounds. Squads were built to capitalise on the talent, with Prem fixtures played during 6N and an opportunity for clubs to box clever - High performing, sub-ENgland players were gold-dust (Beaumont, Taylor, Addison, Hayley etc). Clubs built squads on that basis. There was narrative and drama - would the balance pay off?

Now European fixtures take out blocks and England training camps, six nations and then rest weeks - The Premiership is asked to fit in with the rest. Weeks off; one fixture; players absent; another couple of weeks off; training camps; 6N; two month break; Euro blocks.

How can we hope for fan engagement and growth when theres literal months between fixtures and if people do turn up they dont recognise any of the players.

The Premiership is a busted flush - until you get to the play-offs.
User avatar
By Yareet
#71853
The Back Row wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:56 am
The key part of the above thread for me is the concept of "Fitting in" Premiership fixtures.

Step back several years and the Premiership was a constant and teams would build with that in mind, knowing they were losing players to the Internationals, and the odd off weeks for European rounds. Squads were built to capitalise on the talent, with Prem fixtures played during 6N and an opportunity for clubs to box clever - High performing, sub-ENgland players were gold-dust (Beaumont, Taylor, Addison, Hayley etc). Clubs built squads on that basis. There was narrative and drama - would the balance pay off?

Now European fixtures take out blocks and England training camps, six nations and then rest weeks - The Premiership is asked to fit in with the rest. Weeks off; one fixture; players absent; another couple of weeks off; training camps; 6N; two month break; Euro blocks.

How can we hope for fan engagement and growth when theres literal months between fixtures and if people do turn up they dont recognise any of the players.

The Premiership is a busted flush - until you get to the play-offs.
I'm not sure the Prem has ever been a constant.

Looking at three seasons in particular: 2021/22 (when it was a 13-team league so needed to get more Prem matches played), 2018/19 (the last season pre-covid) and 2010/11 (a random season that would mean we have "stepped back several years"

In each year, the Prem has shut down for the AIs and 6N - not to mention the obvious need for breaks for Europe.

Those games that were played during International windows invariably were lacking the star players - much to the annoyance of clubs and the club rugby fans. I don't think the current structure is quite right but at least now teams are only lacking all the England players for two rounds per season.

There is a lot of argument for a more structured season but good luck making that work. In theory Europe could happen at the end of the season. But I guess that would be at the end of the French season.
By exileneal
#71995
I’d be very surprised if Chessum doesn’t start at 6.

If we start a back-row of Chessum, Curry, Earl then having the other Curry and Willis both on the bench would be ideal for me. Chessum then providing injury cover for lock “from the field”.
RinTin liked this

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