[Flumpty]

At one stage, we had over 1/3rd of the England team today

[poyntonshark]

That Wales prop that we signed is going to fit right in. Yellow card!

He has a reputation to maintain, he is the most penalised prop in the prem.

[poyntonshark]

Difficult to draw any conclusions at all as Wales were so abjectly poor. But, I've decided that it must be a good thing that we won 48 - 0 despite that we basically couldn't be arsed for much of the second half.

[LJK]

well an interesting first weekend of the 6N. Wales are in a state and Ireland very poor compared to only a couple of years back. Great to see Italy progressing so quickly.
BUT....what happened to the World Rugby plans to speed up the game by the ref insisting on quicker formation of line outs and scrums.? That didn't last long and this weekend saw some taking far too long to get play to re-start., with players ambling up to the point of play. The sport will struggle to get the attention of the younger folk it so craves unless there is less 'downtime'.
That said it gives the chance for these adverts to appear which if they do help to keep the sport free to view, then so be it. However, you can see the likely speedy progression of this to more than one ad per half, and then head towards the dreadful USA style of breaks in games to allow for ads.

[Flumpty]

That #10 for England is quite handy

[dinogyro]

well an interesting first weekend of the 6N. Wales are in a state and Ireland very poor compared to only a couple of years back. Great to see Italy progressing so quickly.
BUT....what happened to the World Rugby plans to speed up the game by the ref insisting on quicker formation of line outs and scrums.? That didn't last long and this weekend saw some taking far too long to get play to re-start., with players ambling up to the point of play. The sport will struggle to get the attention of the younger folk it so craves unless there is less 'downtime'.
That said it gives the chance for these adverts to appear which if they do help to keep the sport free to view, then so be it. However, you can see the likely speedy progression of this to more than one ad per half, and then head towards the dreadful USA style of breaks in games to allow for ads.

I hate to complicate the game even more, but wouldn't it be relatively easy to have a time limit between the taking of conversion / penalty and the kick off? Sanction free kick to the other team?

Also reduce the time to take a conversion / penalty to 50 seconds.

[Olyy]

Same 23 for England this week, but with LCD and Itoje starting

Congrats to the lads

[RinTin]

1 change - Finn Smith for Marcus.

As I read it, there is no back cover from 11-15. Anyone of them goes down it's Earl to 12 and then everyone shifting around.

Not a fan of it personally, but well done to our lads. Happy to TR to get more minutes.

[Olyy]

1 change - Finn Smith for Marcus.

D'oh!
Our fault for turning into Wales and having players with the same surnames


I trust Arundell/Freeman more at 15 than Marcus tbf, and Fin Smith has played a bit of 12 off the bench before/shifting when another 10 has come off the bench

Not ideal, and I'd go with a 5:3 personally, but I don't think F.Smith at 23 is more of a risk than Marcus

[Clutch]

Think 5-3 has been shown to be antiquated at this level.

We should be 7-1 with Raffi on the bench!!

[poyntonshark]

And what, exactly, is wrong with antiquated?

[Olyy]

Bit like watching Sale play,
Absolutely garbage for 80mins, and countless countless kicks to nothing

[Lord Elpus]

Bit like watching Sale play,
Absolutely garbage for 80mins, and countless countless kicks to nothing

Too effin' true. Every box kick was knocked on or claimed by the skirts. Only Currie of the Sale lot looked anything like. What was Ford thinking about on the dg - we needed tries ffs?
Our centres neither tackle nor punch holes - Lawrence is needed. Itoje should have benched for Coles to start.

[Olyy]

Yeah, I'm a fan of Dingwall but he doesn't offer much threat ball in hand at this level - it's a shame Ollie Lawrence's form has been quite poor this season. I'd start Atkinson at 12 next week, he had a great summer and had the size/power to keep defences interested

I'd also start Pollock in the back row - we have next to no carrying threat in the pack and the starting backrow hasn't been great (and were completely dominated today)
Earl tries his best but can't do it alone - maybe a Curry/Earl/Pollock backrow? Not against Pepper retaining his shirt though - not been on top form but quietly gone about his business

[poyntonshark]

I said twice during the game that I thought I was watching Sale. First half, despite it being obvious that it wasn't working we persisted with the box kicks, and, for a change, Mitchells kicks weren't the best. Second half I think we only box kicked once, so someone somewhere realised something else was needed, but we had no penetration in midfield and developed Sale's white line fever and made handling error after handling error in "the red zone".

I like Dingwall, and Saints manage an all action back line with him in it. England either learn to use him like Saints do, or look elsewhere. wrong to single him out this week though, I think I could only muster praise for Chessum, the rest were way below their best, some good moments but overall poor. No doubts the knives will be out and aimed between Borthwick's shoulder blades, but nothing to suggest anything other than an off day yet.

[Olyy]

Don't mean to single out Dingwall - just trying to think where we can add in more power

Like you said: it's an issue with how we're playing
Don't know what SB is doing, really - we bring in Lee Blackett, one of the most exciting attack coaches in the league and....does this look anything like any side he's ever coached? Or does it look like we looked before he arrived?
Steward is used completely differently by Tigers than England, and has looked really good for them this season

We look like a team trying to hammer square pegs into round holes - here is our plan AND YOU WILL FOLLOW IT
Not "here are the best players in the country, what are their USPs and how can we use them?"

Sometimes it works well, especially when we have every fit and firing, but the inability to switch things up...very Sale

Very frustrating watch considering what we saw from the side in the summer - we know we can play better rugby, but it's back to spreadsheets and Borthwick-ball when the pressure mounts

[dinogyro]

We can have SB when Alex goes?

[RinTin]

We lost but not by much. We knocked on over the line twice, got a red, got held up over the line and had that brain fart from Ford with the drop. Combine that with Scotland putting in their best performance in 12 months and I don't see need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Move Freeman to wing and bring Lawrence in at 13. Either got 5-3 bench split or go 6-2 but you need someone with more utility in the 23 shirt.

We were exposed - good. Just need to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[SSR]

Arundell does not do it for me. Reminds me of Frank Bruno ( for those of a certain age ), he looks
the part, has some good technique, but does not have the mongrel spirit to compete and
is found out at the top level. Manny F-W is first choice wing, Freeman on the other wing. Tom
seems a bit off the pace at the moment. We need another wing with speed and dog and a
proper full back to compliment. Then we turn to the centres ......
Scotlands backs beat us. France has better.
Hang on a minute, I am sure I said much the same for Sale.

[Olyy]

I've always thought Arundell is a great athlete but not a great rugby player

He's rounded out his skills a lot more at Bath now, and is looking a lot better than before, but his speed and agility is what carries him - not necessarily a terrible thing, especially at club level, he's still very young and IS improving, but (as above) I question how much dog is in him.
Sure he's ran in some pretty simple tries this 6N, but how's he gonna look vs an SA or a France when he doesn't have a clear 10m in front of him? (or a Scotland...)

It's a shame Hendy is very lightweight as I think he's a marginally slower, but much better generally, version of Arundell - i've seen him get absolutely ragdolled in the contact area though (both attack and defence), needs a few more hot meals (or whatever they're feeding Sleightholme)

It's also a shame Radwan is recovering from surgery atm, he would be a perfect replacement

[Lord Elpus]

It seems to me that we don't win turnovers despite having several jackals (allegedly) . Oppo forwards just play in our 22 until either they score or make an error.
In the first half we played with only seven forwards as Underhill was awol.
Russell's kicking always troubled Steward with his lack of pace - maybe try Arundell at fb.
I don't get Radwan's exclusion from the squad.
I imagine F Smith, George & Curry will start v Ireland, possibly Coles as well - Itoje was poor v "Scotland".

[Olyy]

I don't get Radwan's exclusion from the squad.

He had surgery on his ankle(? foot?) a couple of weeks ago

[Surbiton_Shark]

It's not surprising a few of us noticed the similarities between Sale and England's appearance

Stop the forwards and the backs really couldn't deliver anything to trouble Scotland. Our answer...continue kick/chase from 9 despite it clearly not working......Ford preferring to kick rather that kick ball in hand. He really puts a ceiling on the backs when he plays - they rarely get ball in hand.

Huge congrats to Scotland - utterly outplayed us. I never saw that result coming. Our whole team almost went missing, even though I'm a huge Curry fan - he really didn't make much different when he came on - barely anyone put in a good performance.

I thought it extremely harsh on Marcus Smith missing out for Scotland. He's one of our few backs that can make something from nothing. Steward seems like Dombrandt - just not suited for an England shirt.

Hopefully a really good wake up call for England, why it was needed is a fair question to be asked to the squad. Makes France away extremely interesting to see how we cope with that. Before that we have Ireland...after last week I won't make any predictions! - I'll be at the game so hope to see some fellow Shark fans

[Olyy]

Roebuck dropped from the 23 - feel for him, realistically he probably shouldn't have been in the 6N squad considering he's not played since November. Has looked rusty/not quite on the pace.

Genge, LCD, Heyes
Itoje, Chessum
Curry, Earl, Pollock
Mitchell, Ford
Arundell, Dingwall, Lawrence, Freeman
Steward

George, Rodd, Davison, Coles, Pepper, Underhill, JvP, M.Smith

Arundell lucky to keep his shirt, I half expected Daly to take it
I don't get having Underhill (or T.Curry, before) on the bench - they should be starting or not in the 23, would much prefer Cunningham-South there

[Lord Elpus]

Imho Itoje, LCD, Arundell , Steward lucky to be starting.

[DavenportSharky]

https://youtube.com/shorts/wVZ1noeTIu0? ... HfB3gs6Nv9

[Surbiton_Shark]

https://youtube.com/shorts/wVZ1noeTIu0? ... HfB3gs6Nv9

Most amusing!

[Clutch]

Think it is bit hasty to be dropping Arundall. Why not stick with him for a few games. He's got talent. Can't be chopping and changing after one mistimed aerial challenge.

No idea why Steward still gets selected but there are no other 15s in the squad really. That effort from the cross field kick was embarrassing for an international back 3 player.

[Olyy]

Absolutely pathetic from England, somehow worse than last week - really do look like Sale atm

Ford comfortably the worst I've ever seen him play, crazy he played the 80 even with a 6:2 - Fin Smith probably quite happy that SB hates him and he doesn't have this stink on him
LCD subbed in under 30mins after shanking every lineout
Curry completely anonymous other than giving away the penalty JGP scored from and getting clattered in the chops (which somehow went unpunished)

Rodd won a few scrum penalties, so is our star player of the week

[SSR]

Don't think it is fair to single out GF. The last two performances by the team has been as poor
as any I remember. Our backs seem slow and defence is woeful. The forwards seem to
forgotten what they are there for. Something very badly wrong with the whole atmosphere
about the team. Hang on, that sounds familiar. The Irish played like the team I wish England
were. The players they have drafted in absolutely played their socks off, made ours look second
rate. How did we miss out on Farrell as head coach ?

[Olyy]

Not specifically singling him out, just commenting on the Sale players - be hear all day if I wanted to comment on where everyone else went wrong too

Ford is especially disappointing though considering he's meant to be like an extra coach on the pitch etc

[Surbiton_Shark]

I was at the match.....Was in a bit of shock around our Scottish performance and was expecting a big performance especially at home....which ended up feeling like an away match

Subbing Steward just before the 1st half as we 'had' to score about summed up our approach......why's he even in the squad. What's our game plan other than kick/chase? like Sale..in fact exactly like Sale...why keep kicking when you never win/compete in the air and just hand the ball to the oppo who work hard to keep ball in hand

Crowd in the first half got increasingly frustrated with Ford, who had a shocker...and the continual kicks.....must be something on field when the crowd are screaming 'stop kicking'...

Still bewildered how we went on a 12? match unbeaten run with some really good performances to the last two shambles.

One thing was obvious in our attack - we're so utterly predictable, we were in the upper stand behind the posts....Ireland just kept three people back...guess what..everytime we kicked....the most we did was one or two passes and just charged into contact

For me...George Ford...has to go from England - he just, like at Sale, puts a handbrake on the attack. The brave thing to do would have been swapping him for Marcus.

Cricket isn't going well either.......

[RinTin]

It is fair to bring criticism Fords way when he is meant to be steering the ship. He's always been praised for his tactical nous and decision making, but looked lost yesterday, as he did against Scotland.

One thing I really didn't understand was the lack of ball given to our wingers. Lawrence and M Smith very guilty of this (step back in instead of one more pass). It's not always on, but Freeman and Arundel had to work hard to see any ball at all. Ford not giving it early to Freeman in the 65th minute when breaking was a clear example of this too.

Poor basics, poor decision making, no plan b and players underperforming. As stated above, that does sound very familiar.

[Surbiton_Shark]

It is fair to bring criticism Fords way when he is meant to be steering the ship. He's always been praised for his tactical nous and decision making, but looked lost yesterday, as he did against Scotland.

One thing I really didn't understand was the lack of ball given to our wingers. Lawrence and M Smith very guilty of this (step back in instead of one more pass). It's not always on, but Freeman and Arundel had to work hard to see any ball at all. Ford not giving it early to Freeman in the 65th minute when breaking was a clear example of this too.

Poor basics, poor decision making, no plan b and players underperforming. As stated above, that does sound very familiar.

For your wingers question....for what it's worth....

Ireland were happy to do the big miss pass to their wingers (like teams do against us to counter our rush defence) - I cannot remember one time we ever tried that - it was all close quarter passing mainly followed by contact with no off-loads in the contact area.

Irish handling was also good, they had a desire and confidence to keep the ball alive

[Lord Elpus]

Exactly like SS- slow in thought and deed. Can't play quickly as the handling and passing is so poor.
T. Curry is totally spent. Given everyone else was so poor Pollock and Earl strived in vain. Genge is all wind and p*ss.
Neither lock punched their weight.
Probably Ojomoh will replace Dingwall.
Good job Piadi went off injured - it might have been even worse.

[Evo]

That was a difficult watch on Tom (or any other player to be fair).

I really hope hope his dexterity has avoided a serious injury. I suspect he will target Quins AWAY in the CL and hopefully we'll have his twin by his side.

Tough watch....

[Clutch]

Really, the French ref was awful. Followed by Brace on Sunday, felt like a new low in terms of reffing (though it isn't their fault they are being told to ref this way).

Exactly like SS- slow in thought and deed. Can't play quickly as the handling and passing is so poor.
T. Curry is totally spent. Given everyone else was so poor Pollock and Earl strived in vain. Genge is all wind and p*ss.
Neither lock punched their weight.
Probably Ojomoh will replace Dingwall.
Good job Piadi went off injured - it might have been even worse.

[Olyy]

Mitchell out for the remainder of the 6N, Raffi called up

[ejndavid95]

Tom Curry has just been helped out of the warm-up limping heavily. Gutted for him, hopefully not another long-term injury but didn't look at all happy.

[Olyy]

Yet another record in Scab Nose's cap - first England coach to lose to Italy

The amount of (bad) records he's accumulated for record defeats, fewest tries, first losses etc. is honestly impressive

[RinTin]

Call it quits with him post France. Gives time to find a successor, with that new coach then having Nations Cup (6 games) and a 6 nations to get ready for the world cup. It's now or never for the RFU really.

In a perfect world he would face the music and tender his resignation.

[Lord Elpus]

Is it just me - or can anyone else hear laughter coming from Australia?

[poyntonshark]

Trust me, I'm not laughing.

[Surbiton_Shark]

Regardless of who the coaches are and what the tactics are.....the question post the France game needs to be asked.......where were the forward pack for all previous games.......

A hugely enjoyable game to watch, really had our chance at the end and just absolutely blew it by wasting the turnover with Pollock and Murley who basically operated like a headless chicken the entire match - the pen he gave away just before half-time was truly frustrating

Finn Smith was great in the tackle area, seemed to struggle with the pace/intensity and took the ball himself multiple times as he couldn't get the ball away. For my money we must really stick with him at 10. Marcus Smith should have been bought on earlier to help ease the pressure with the goal kicks and also Daly just shouldn't near the starting XV. JVP as sub 9 seemed to slow us down more than add anything dynamic - prob be better keeping Spencer on. Biggar at half time made a big point in saying we had to keep playing and be brave...the notable exception was when our forwards held on to the ball when Roebuck was literally on his tod out wide but we weren't brave enough to give it a go and the forwards were duly help up.

SA will be a huge challenge for our next set of matches. I'm still at a loss as to why our pack went missing for the majority of the campaign.

[Lord Elpus]

Too many goal kicks missed. Chessum should have got closer to the sticks. LCD held up over the line was poor.
Overall the improvement came from Itoje making a contribution and playing a ball carrier at 6.
Sadly I think Coles's injury looked bad. (ACL?).
Even without Ford England are still very narrow in defence - making it very easy for B-B.

[dinogyro]

As Surbiton said, Roebuck out wide, France down to 14 and we get held up over the line. The 9/10 combo should have taken charge of that, but also the forwards need to be better coached for that exact situation.

The big one for me was 2 minutes to go, 2 points up (1 point? I'd had a fair bit of wine at that point), we kick back possession to one of the best attacking teams in the world. FFS.

[LJK]

100% right dinogyro.....I shouted so loudly at the poor TV when JVP (?) did that.....why oh why.? Yes there were still 3 or more minutes to play but France would have got frustrated if we attempted to see the game out and they may well have infringed.
Instead it was England who were frustrated, gave the pen away and Mr 100% Ramos did what he does so well. Crazy

[RinTin]

JVP just seems terrified when playing for England. It's as if he pauses at every ruck to remember what the coaches instructions were. Removes all pace and dynamism from attacking situations. The lad has so much pace as well which was shown as he tracked back on LBB.

It pains me to say it but I really was hoping we would get spanked so the RFU's hand would be forced with regards to Borthwick. An absolute pasting and he would have to go. Nearly winning and being part of the most enthralling match of the tournament unfortunately means Steve won't go anywhere.

[Olyy]

I rate JvP, I feel like he's hamstrung by the England gameplan in the same way that Tigers use Freddie Steward in a completely different, significantly more effective, way than England do - if we're not going to allow him to play to his strengths then I do agree we shouldn't be using him

As bad as the box kick was the biggest offender was Pollock's miracle offload for no reason - 70s on the clock, we get the turnover, he throws an offload to Murley (who even if he takes it is completely outnumbered), it goes to floor and they then score to win. If he takes the contact we go through 3 or 4 rucks and kick it out to win

[Olyy]

Couldn't be bothered bypassing the paywall but there's an article in the Time about Tom Curry,
Apparently out until April with a calf injury (better than the knee injury I initially thought it was) and we've asked if England could rest him over the summer for the sake of the longevity of his career - makes perfect sense IMO, give him the summer off to hopefully heal up, rest, recover, strengthen ahead of a long World Cup season
He's more than experienced enough to drop straight back in and hit the ground running if/when he gets recalled