#8622
Managed to skim read it and its rather enlightening I will read it fully over the weekend I think.

One thing I would say is I doubt there are many clubs who want full investigations into the salary cap breaches going back since the start of the professional era as but I do hope Premiership rugby review and amend the salary cap legislation so grey areas such as those used by Saracens are made clear in what is allowed and what isn't. Perhaps it would be wise to have more than 1 person looking after the salary cap.
#8628
Correct me if I'm wrong but Saracens main defence was that they were innocent because the salary cap was illegal due to it contravening Eu competition law and the regulations were void under Article 101 as they hadn't been agreed by collective bargaining.
This legal argument fell down when it was pointed out that saracens had voted for the cap in 1999 and had failed to lodge any objections when the salary cap levels were set in subsequent seasons.
Despite the redactions the subsequent payments over the three seasons under consideration were irrefutable breaches.
#8634
I agree very much with Southstand, above.

The Judgment requires some concentration when reading through it! I cannot say that I have absorbed more than a fraction of it.

Suffice it to say, the Judgment deals with differing interpretations as to whether the various transactions were to be regarded as "salary" or not. However before the panel decided on those issues it had to determine whether the PRL rules themselves could be challenged in respect of competition law.

Saracens lost both of their arguments.

That in relation to competition law is of particular interest in that the Saracens lawyers seemed to be saying that having a cap at all was illegal whilst Wray and a previous CEO had accepted that the cap was a "good thing" (my words) AND that Saracens were party to the agreement which set it up! Hoist with their own...

Conclusions to be drawn?

1) The policing of the salary cap is not as simple and straightforward as one might think. It is far, far more than looking at players' P60s.
2) The Salary Cap Manager should therefore have our sympathy - not criticism - especially as his decisions were mostly supported by the panel.
3) It is one thing to determine whether a Salary Cap has been adhered to in relation to the small print, it is another to ensure that its spirit has been followed.
#8636
What strikes me on a quick read through is the content from p40 onwards regarding the various arrangements with certain players. Redacted in the Sports Resolutions document, (although one may make educated guesses based on the likely numbers of characters redacted,) but not redacted in the Sky News published extracts.

This makes it hard to have any sympathy, as suggested should be the case by many, with the players who are held to have had no knowledge that payments may have been out of order.

Are we to accept that Chris Ashton didn’t notice he’d only paid for 80% of the cost of his house, and that that couldn’t possibly be taken as a benefit in kind, or that Itoje thought it was perfectly in order to be paid for not attending pr functions?

My sympathy in this matter extends to duped Sarries supporters, robbed Exeter supporters, and the supporters of the top championship sides who can kiss any realistic prospect of promotion next year goodbye.
#8643
I do think it isn't reasonable to expect individual players to have an over sight of the club's salary cap position. Yes they have a responsibility but how would they know what every other player is getting?

It is after all the club's responsibility to keep under the cap not the players. A player is not going to think "I wonder if they pay me for that the club stay under the cap" not going to happen and shouldn't be expected to.
#8645
I don't thnk anyone has suggested that they players should accept responsibility, rather the situation affects the level of sympathy for those players who are now likely to have to take a pay cut in order to remain playing in England. I think it is reasonable to expect the players to understand that their payment arrangements were outside the norm and to at least be suspicious that they were not the only ones at the club to be receieving special treatment.
#8649
poyntonshark wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:53 am
I don't thnk anyone has suggested that they players should accept responsibility, rather the situation affects the level of sympathy for those players who are now likely to have to take a pay cut in order to remain playing in England. I think it is reasonable to expect the players to understand that their payment arrangements were outside the norm and to at least be suspicious that they were not the only ones at the club to be receieving special treatment.
Exactly that.
#8650
poyntonshark wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:53 am
I don't thnk anyone has suggested that they players should accept responsibility, rather the situation affects the level of sympathy for those players who are now likely to have to take a pay cut in order to remain playing in England. I think it is reasonable to expect the players to understand that their payment arrangements were outside the norm and to at least be suspicious that they were not the only ones at the club to be receieving special treatment.
While I agree clearly Sarries cut out the agents where they could so was it down to the player to learn the salary cap legislation in finite details? Or do they take the clubs word that they have done there due diligence on the matters and that these separate arrangements would not be counted as a benefit in kind.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the players they will be forever tainted as the team that won because they were salary cap cheats and I largely suspect they had no inclination what the club was doing was wrong.
#8654
I have to admit to being rather sceptical that the players did not know that something was amiss. The rugby world is a small one and there have been whispers for a while that they must have picked up.

It could be that they were told that "it's a grey area and we can argue the case if it ever comes to it - which it won't" and that they trusted what was said to them.
west brom warrior liked this
#8678
A38 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:18 am
I have to admit to being rather sceptical that the players did not know that something was amiss. The rugby world is a small one and there have been whispers for a while that they must have picked up.

It could be that they were told that "it's a grey area and we can argue the case if it ever comes to it - which it won't" and that they trusted what was said to them.
Oh I don't know. Surely all rugby players are paid large sums of money by the owner's daughter via a separate account and have a joint-venture company set-up for them don't they? How could they possibly spot anything dodgy was going on?

(Can't find a sarcasm emoji!)
#8697
west brom warrior wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:44 pm
Simon plenty of clubs have used similar tactics such as hiring players wives to put on events at the club for vast sums of money compared to the commercial rate. The difference is that loophole was closed down years ago and clubs on the whole complied.
Indeed but "closed down years ago" is the relevant bit.
#8700
A38 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:08 pm
Can I recommend the post by St Andy here:-

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/rea ... 589,page=7

Very well worth a read. It is at 16.42 yesterday.

Its a good point he makes about the future of Saracens if the club has to do without the Wray money.
Very good post. Although it reminded me why I avoid SN. Those bl@@dy adverts!
#8701
For those who prefer not to look elsewhere, this from St Andy.....

May I say I have no contacts, no inside information, but I was in the police force for 17 years, most of it as a detective and often worked closely with the forces commercial fraud department, so this may give me a certain angle.

At the moment, especially on the Saracens board, they are, understandably looking for any little nugget to mitigate the case for the defence. I especially feel for the old time fans, who have done no wrong and wish them the best. But what they and some of us are looking at is the minutiae of the case, we are maybe failing to see the wood for the trees.

This sort of case is by no means unique in life in general, or sport in general but is probably the worst of its kind in rugby. It is about people, and one man in particulars hubris and arrogance, it is about money, it is about deceit. And in my view is not about this year, or the last three years, or even the last ten. It goes back to the last century. Also, like many cases it is not so much the crime that is seen as so heinous it is the continual cover up, with only anything actually being admitted once the evidence is overwhelming and not a hint of real contrition or apology to all the thousands of fans, employees and players of other clubs whose time, money, glory and medals they have stolen

Mr. Nigel Wray is not remembered fondly by Nottingham Forest Football fans, he had money, but wanted to be the sportsman who was parading around the pitch with the big silver cup. Unfortunately, money cannot buy you sporting talent for yourself, so the only way is to get others to do it for you. Mr. Wray realised, that even with his large wealth, the way football was going this was never going to be nearly enough to compete with the billionaires on the way. And he was right.

Rugby on the other hand was in its professional infancy and very much finding its feet. In the first instance I think there may have been a genuine attempt to grow the club and the fan base, with the free tickets, gimmicks and matches at Wembley. "If you build it they will come", but they didn't.

I remember us all being told that the astronomic losses were temporary and the club planned to at least break even within a few years. Eventually that message stopped and the South Africans had arrived complete with riches beyond the dreams of avarice. This I believe is where the rot really set in.

In spite of all the money. it could not be spent because of the salary cap, but that cap was only voted in by a slender majority, Mr Wray had to sign up to it and looked the other owners and stakeholders in the eye and lied to their faces, it looked like it was not taken particularly seriously by a number of clubs anyway. Saracens however were the ones who pushed it the most, with a myriad of South African stars gracing their team. And so the period of domination began, rumours abounded about monies and property being paid in South Africa.

The Saffacens era eventually evolved, into hoovering up UK and especially English talent and an academy which was excellent, although not quite as excellent as they would have us believe because it has been allowed to operate in a way that would have been impossible if abiding by the cap. This was a good plan because not only were the best English players playing for Saracens, they weren't playing for anyone else in the Premiership. It became increasingly suspicious that every other club would have to lose star players to stay within the cap, but Saracens never did in fact it was often Saracens they would go to. It was then the spin machine had to click into gear, it was about the academy, it was about the facilities, it was about the medical care, it was about the creche, it was about the bonding trips, the brotherhood, the wolfpack. The only thing it was never about was the money. And every signing, had the tagline attached "There is something special was happening at Saracens." Well at least that bit was true.

To keep the whole thing rolling on they managed to get one and then two marquee players outwith the cap. They could snap up a couple of players others could not afford, pay them what you like, thereby tilting the balance but it was not enough.

The deception was now in full swing the trophies were flooding in, but that was still not enough, now it was time to really rub our noses in it. From a Saints point of view, who can forget the free beer tent and the march en mass to the stadium. The loud singing of "their" song in the dressing rooms. In the stands, waving their free flags singing as "When the Saints go marching home," after yet another drubbing. Away from home, the lack of grace by putting a 2014 league champions sign up when they had lost the final, and the guard of honour with children in arms BEFORE the match.

Meanwhile me and I am sure many other fans across the country, would year after year scan down the team sheet and especially the replacements and ask ourselves, how do they actually, really afford all this lot and be under the cap.

And so it went on and progressed from domestic to European domination and matches in the USA.

This brings us to three years ago and it would seem the other clubs, who obviously knew more than they would ever let on to the ordinary supporter, decided this could not be allowed to continue, but because a couple of other clubs had breached the cap by a small amount, it was decided that a fine would be paid, a line drawn and the whole thing brushed under the carpet. Again Mr. Wray looked them all in the eye and agreed.

He knew though that to comply in future he would have to reduce his squad, less cups perhaps, less lovely photos of him and his team on the pitch with the big silver cup. "Can't have that, we'll do what we did last time and find a way round it." But this time it was supercharged, it would seem schemes were hatched and lot of money paid to lawyers for opinions. But opinions are exactly that, and different lawyers have different opinions. So instead of taking the schemes to the league to get them signed off or not, he ran with it and the salary cap breach sky rocketed. The likes of Saints were being thrashed by 50 or 60 points every time we played them. Enough was finally enough and an independent inquiry has been done. Of course by this time, it seems the South Africans had seen the writing on the wall and perhaps that Mr. Wray had become a loose cannon and left the scene.

Now it is perfectly fair to argue that the results of this inquiry have been handled badly with diplomatic language used, redactions and the thing coming out piecemeal, revealing slowly a picture emerging. That said it is clear Saracens have no way of getting below the cap this season and thus if they could make up the 35 penalty, with an illegal squad then the result would be an innocent club relegated. This would have been unacceptable. But even then they could've taken the forensic audit option, so I suspect they know that what that would reveal would damn them to relegation anyway. But before this we once again got the old lines about the academy, and perhaps the most sickening of all, the co-investments "looking after players futures." But it emerges not the marquee players futures, can pay them as much you like anyway, not the fringe players futures. No, only the ones we need to make it look we are paying less, to keep them and stay under the cap.

And so to the future, it seems that the RFU are bending over backwards for the Saracens players, Farrell is on about staying on, fine what about the others? The problem now is Saracens RFC need to cut all ties with Nigel Wray to come back with any integrity at all, but without his money they are a complete basket case, nobody is going to want to back them and the sponsors are already decamping. The brand is toxic. How then are they going to pay these players, even the vastly reduced amounts that they would need to to get under the cap? They certainly dont have the fan base to do it.

So the sorry saga draws to a conclusion, where nobody comes out with much credit. So I think the words of the character Valery Lugasov, who was the nuclear scientist who carried out the Soviet investigation into the Chernobyl. And no I am not saying the two are comparable but the words from the TV series where he told the truth and thereby damned himself to exile until his later suicide, are apt:

"Our secrets and our lies, they are practically what define us, when the truth offends we lie and lie until we can hardly remember that it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth, sooner or later that debt is paid."
Philosopher liked this
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