chris1850 wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:21 pm
Interesting post! It is all subjective of course.
For me, I am not sure McGuigan is world class, and I am not sure Ashton is a world class 15, though he is a world class wing. Solomona is better than Prem standard but world class? Not sure! Similarly Ben and Jonno are better than Prem standard but not world class.
I think you have to rate Oosthuizen as world class, having played 30 odd tests? So, I would shift him, Harrison and Morozov all one to the left in your spreadsheet. Also,think Phillips is a Prem Start B rather than a squad player.
Of course, all subjective, but I would argue he is, or at least can be, a world class 15 given his performance whilst at Toulon, but agree he is also a world class wing. My definition of world class is tier 1 international, not necessarily starting, but wouldn't be amiss in the 23 for say, Scotland. So McGuigan must be in that. I don't mean world class as in "gets into a world XV!" - echo chris1850's comments re: Saracens
I think yes Oosthuizen and Solomona are between world class and Prem Start, though on current form maybe Shrek veers more towards Prem Start. Also agree about Ben and Jono but due to no caps thought they belonged more in the Prem Start category. I would agree that if they were both Scottish for example they would almost certainly be in the national team.
I don't think Morozov is yet Prem Start, though if not for his poor discipline this season would probably have got more game time, maybe moving him one column across.
I've heard Phillips referred to numerous times as the ultimate squad player, I really rate him, he's been very very good for us, and one of our most underrated signings, but he wouldn't start for Sarries, Exeter, Northampton, Gloucester, though would probably start for a bottom 6 team.
Thekeg wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:39 pm
I think you could argue Oosthuizen is a “worldie” based on the criteria you set
WGJ is a prem player IMO, might develop higher but not yet played internationally
Very much doubt Evans will be here next year
I’d say Cliff is a squad player, just happens to be in good form, bit like Phillips last year
I know mcguigan has played for Scotland but he’s a prem player in standard I think. Scotland lack depth
I think Solomona similar but with more potential
Like James still a squad player but a fast improving one
Redpath is definitely a centre not a 15 at present
Agree we are a centre light, Lozowski would be perfect
I also think we will need a hooker plus either a second row or a 6/8 depending on where JLDP longer term future lies.
Obviously there had been talk of Koch as well who would be a worldie at 3....
Agree about Oosthuizen, but I think he's likely to slow down from here on out, rather than get better (obviously still a very good player, his versatility is also very valuable
Would have hoped Evans would stay another year, if not we desperately need another Lock, but on reflection he's probably going.
Agree on Cliff, probably should be moved one column to the right but on current form he's Prem Start.
For Luke James I think if he came from another club this year, and we didn't know him as an academy grad, I think most would see him as Prem Start. He's looked class, made hardly any mistakes and has covered two positions very well. I think his reputation as a young player almost counts against him, but I suppose he hasn't been challenged to play the full 80 against a great team yet (I don't think?)
I say Redpath at 15 because from what I've seen this season he's not Prem standard 12, doesn't fit our system/looked poor at 13 but looked very sharp at 15 at age grade. The exact opposite of a crash ball at 12. Jury still out though, he's been unlucky with injury and is clearly a great talent, just needs more time imo.
My main takeway from this would be that Lozowski would be absolutely perfect for us.
I think JLDP will return to 6 next season once LDJ and Beau fit again, though for my money he's been one of the best locks in the Prem for the past few round.
Koch would certainly be a worldie 3, though I can't see how we could fit him in if we keep WGJ, a lock or a centre (maybe hooker) would be more of a priority.
MikeGC wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:46 pm
In my humble opinion de Klerk and Curry T are the only world class players.
Incidentally, I feel Beaumont should be listed as a premiership quality no 8
I don't mean world class as in would get into a world XV, just players who are either current internationals or those who wouldn't look out of place for a tier one squad, though probably I've been inconsistent with this selection.
For me, and it seems for Sale, Beaumont is now a lock who can cover 8 (and covers it very well, for sure) but with the back row talent we have now, and the comparative lack of depth at lock, I can't see him playing 8 when DDP, JLDP, and Ross are fit. Though I agree that he plays equally well at lock and 8.
I think our truly "world class" - world XV players would be Faf, T. Curry, LDJ. I reckon DDP will start for SA at 8 in a few years, if not sooner. If DDP was English he'd probably be starting for England at 8 this 6N.
Yareet wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:16 pm
poyntonshark wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:07 am
I agree Lood, Faf, and Tom are our only world-class players. Chris Ashton might just still sneak in. I also agree that Dimes' definition was a loose one. I think Tier 1 International Quality, though a bit more of a mouthful, would be a better description.
Under that criteria, I pretty well agree with your assessment but would put Coenie in the Worldie column.
Is there a quality difference between Prem A and Prem B?
No difference between A and B, just that for some positions we have two players who are in that class. Harrison, Oosthuizen (though he could be worldie). AJ and RDP don't think there's much between them, but don't think they're worldie anymore/yet.