User avatar
By patgadd
#8433
And as for Sarries themselves, I note this morning that they now apologise for mistakes they made. Hitler invading Poland was obviously just a silly mistake, as was the slaughter of the plains Indians by the American government or the Enniskillen bombings, If only they'd apologised afterwards!
User avatar
By west brom warrior
#8438
patgadd wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:36 pm
And as for Sarries themselves, I note this morning that they now apologise for mistakes they made. Hitler invading Poland was obviously just a silly mistake, as was the slaughter of the plains Indians by the American government or the Enniskillen bombings, If only they'd apologised afterwards!
Good grief the award for the biggest overreaction has been settled. Yes they broke the salary cap and they are now suffering the consequences with relegation and many players departing (many of them have been bought through the academy) and the club will be forever tainted by opponents labelling them as cheats for many years to come.
By TVM
#8452
Interesting to see that the specialist press are playing the classic 'politics of envy' card.

The thing we need to remember about publications like the Rugby Paper is that they are niche - they have nothing like the clout of the The Times or The Guardian.

If they burn a bridge with Saracens, that could cut off a very rich supply of copy. By blaming a miscellaneous systemic issue and not Saracens - no bridges are burned and their business model rumbles on.

It may not be the picture of journalism painted in popular media (irony) but its the truth in the increasingly belaegured world of paid for press
A38, Latecomer liked this
By Southstand(again)
#8481
I think they have got off lightly.
The RFU should now step in on the question of their bringing the game into disrepute and suspend them from all forms of Rugby until they open their books.
As for the fans, I don't think I will be expressing sympathy anytime soon.
If it was Warriors operating with the squad Saracens had season after season I would like to think one two of us on this board would at least be asking questions.
for me the players don't exactly come out smelling of roses, rather like the days of "Money in the boot" they knew exactly what was going on.
I'm probably not being politically correct, i just don't like cheats.
TeflonTed, patgadd, Latecomer and 1 others liked this
By TVM
#8491
Something I wrote on the other place:

I have to say I am content to see a line drawn under this and for the league to move on. The financial pressure is going to be significant - with the £5.3 million fine, usual losses associated with a relegation and the likely loss of investment and sponsorship - if Allianz stay I would be startled, given the nature of the offence.

Blood pressures seem raised all round - and there seems to be something of mob demand for tarring and feathering now - and (in my lowly opinion) that is where punishment stops and revenge starts - and so that is enough.

Fan and player wise, my levels of sympathy remain way lower than many people's though.

Anyone with a scintilla of imagination would have seen that even if Saracens had found a loophole, they were outwith the spirit of the thing. To blithely accept management reassurances to me of having just enough excuse to suspend disbelief and enjoy the ride because its just too good.

I am not saying I would have done different. I can imagine (if I am honest) I probably wouldn't.

But equally, when the train pulls into the station, you simply have to get off.

TL;DR - they knew the rules, played the game, they lost. *shrug*
By Underdog
#8499
Agreed. Some seem to want the rule punishment to tip into vindictiveness. For me, the punishment is adequate, although I really think it was bungled slightly in that Sarries couldn't really have come under the cap this season with the notice they had.
west brom warrior liked this
User avatar
By west brom warrior
#8512
I agree TVM and Underdog that the punishment ends the Saracens salary cap saga although I have total sympathy for the supporters and also sympathy for the players.
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#8518
west brom warrior wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:07 am
I agree TVM and Underdog that the punishment ends the Saracens salary cap saga although I have total sympathy for the supporters and also sympathy for the players.
I agree with the sentiments re. supporters, total sympathy with the vast majority is certainly in order. I’m less sure that some of the senior players wouldn’t have had some idea that something must be a bit dodgy, or are they all totally naive? Reading around the various forums there’s a lot of anger about Sarries not being stripped of premiership titles.

Re. players, (Sarries and others) from another angle, it seems EJ is aware that there might be issues. As I comment on the Ted thread:-

Following EJ’s interview on telly re. 6N preparations he seems to have had a “good idea”. He is reported as intending to assemble the players for an informal drink on Wed evening to have an open discussion to get the issue “out of the way”

Good luck with that one Eddie.
User avatar
By west brom warrior
#8527
Well with the players what nobody knows is what they were told by the club when they were setting up these joint businesses etc. if they have been told by the club that they had it all checked out and its fine then and within the rules then I would question how some of the players stay at Saracens knowing they have been mislead.

I do hope the England squad are big enough to put club issues to one side, again if I was in there position my anger would be directed to Saracens management not the players but then again being in the situation is very different to being sat at my desk in my office.
By A38
#8549
Bits of additional information are beginning to emerge about Saracens.

In today's Times, Owen Slot says that:-

1) Other Prem clubs were passing information to PRL about suspected breaches of the salary cap for a while.
2) Quins were one of those clubs (and probably a source, if not the source, for the article)
3) Quins shared information gleaned with PRL about property ownership including a farm in South Africa
4) PRL's salary cap manager was a one man department.
5) Other information came from players' agents.
6) Saracens had a history of cutting out agents from players' contract deals.
7) Publishing the full text of the judgment would have to be agreed by all 13 Prem clubs. Saracens have, in effect, a veto.

Although this is all history now, there will I am sure be quite a few "learning points" when the promised review gets going.

But for the moment it is very difficult to accept that the Saracens' players and coaching staff did not know what was going on.
User avatar
By patgadd
#8554
In the interview Brendan Venter continually refuses to say why Saracens vetoed the full report. Until they come clean nobody will believe that they have, as it were, come clean.
User avatar
By TeflonTed
#8578
Well this will be required reading won’t it.

Interesting that new Sarries chairman Neil Golding is reported as saying “ To confirm, we are keen for the report to be published in full” which is directly contradictory to previous published statements that Sarries’ lawyers had confirmed in writing to PRL that publication was not agreed.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/n ... ship-rugby

Also interesting to see that was Quins who did a lot of the digging and submitted a dossier to PRL salary cap manager back in 2018, they kept that pretty well under wraps.
By Underdog
#8585
Quins and Sarries have often had proper ding dong virtual test matches over that timeline. I think we just found a possible reason for Quins' extra motivation.
Freypal liked this
By SimonG
#8587
It is well known that one of the main reasons Conor O'Shea left Quins was because Saracens were being allowed to get away with cheating so it is not surprising that Quins have such utter contempt for the Cheats.
By FlipFlop
#8671
Have to say i am surprised that Quins seem to main impetus behind recent actions in this saga.

After all, the likes of Kyle Sinckler, Joe Marler, Chris Robshaw, Mike Brown, Jamie Roberts, notable SH former AB's and similar don't come cheap in Suburbia, even when playing with Marquee rules. Has Wasps more recent loss of high profile players just been end of contract wastage / injury retirements?

For any visiting this forum from said Boards(or those from within), my view is conjecture based on the rather than any inside knowledge and it may well be that Warriors have flirted way too close to the limits in pursuit of success to make us any less vulnerable, despite our pitiful on field showing for way too long.
By SimonG
#8677
FlipFlop wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:31 pm
Have to say i am surprised that Quins seem to main impetus behind recent actions in this saga.

After all, the likes of Kyle Sinckler, Joe Marler, Chris Robshaw, Mike Brown, Jamie Roberts, notable SH former AB's and similar don't come cheap in Suburbia, even when playing with Marquee rules. Has Wasps more recent loss of high profile players just been end of contract wastage / injury retirements?

For any visiting this forum from said Boards(or those from within), my view is conjecture based on the rather than any inside knowledge and it may well be that Warriors have flirted way too close to the limits in pursuit of success to make us any less vulnerable, despite our pitiful on field showing for way too long.
I'm not the slightest bit surprised as it is well known that one of the main reasons Conor O'Shea left Quins was due to Saracens being allowed to pay a settlement fee to allow the inquiry into the previous cheating to be closed.
User avatar
By west brom warrior
#8686
I have no doubt that most clubs have flouted loopholes and grey areas in the salary cap since it was introduced however I feel in the last few years these have been cut down dramatically hence why the majority of clubs now are in my opinion inside the cap financially and morally.
By W4rriorz1980
#8806
:lol
patgadd wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:01 pm
Definition of Ironic:

When your team is in its best January position for years and then finds out it can't be relegated anyway.
:lol
By TVM
#8924
W4rriorz1980 wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:54 am
:lol
patgadd wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:01 pm
Definition of Ironic:

When your team is in its best January position for years and then finds out it can't be relegated anyway.
:lol
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51272146

Illuminating

'"[The investment] was completely separate to the rugby for me," he (Ashton) said"

To truly believe this - and maintain any sort of moral seperation*, he has to truly believe the rich old gentleman would have invested with him if he didn't play for his rugby club.

Sorry - no sale.

*by saying 'to me' he is putting a subjective moral, not legal/regulation interpretation slant on it - in my opinion.
User avatar
By RichieMundo
#8932
Not being serious here: I think the only way it could get worse for Sarries now is for them to be taken over by the British Darts Organisation...
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